Marcus Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I'm not sure if Josh has announced which IDE(s) will be officially supported, but which ones would your prefer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 We use Visual Studio 2008 for Windows, Xcode for OSX and iOS, and Eclipse for Android. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Taylor Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 We use Visual Studio 2008 for Windows, Xcode for OSX and iOS, and Eclipse for Android. Why Visual Studio 2008 over the latest 2010? Did you run into some sort of compatibility issue? As for the Poll, I use VIM and a few custom scripts on any and all OS's. Quote There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?" Let's make things happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Why Visual Studio 2008 over the latest 2010? Did you run into some sort of compatibility issue? I believe there's a significant number of computers that don't have the VC 2010 Redistributable Package installed. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 I still prefer Code::Blocks to Microsoft. I can understand the Visual Studio choice though. I would imagine it looks more professional. I'm still hesitant to walk away from Code::Blocks as I can run the same IDE on Windows, Mac, and Linux. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Taylor Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I believe there's a significant number of computers that don't have the VC 2010 Redistributable Package installed. That seems like a rather easy thing to solve. If it wasn't obvious by the name, it's designed to be redistributed with any application that is compiled against the latest version of MSVC. It's downright trivial to add a silent install option in a game's installation package. In addition, support for Visual Studio 2008 Express is being phased out. Obviously the choice is yours, but that seems to be a pretty silly reason. Quote There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?" Let's make things happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Richmond Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I use MSVC 2010 for Leadwerks and almost any other C++ project. But I recently stumbled across Sublime. Its not really an IDE but you can pluginify it to do whatever you need, and its by far the best one I've ever seen. Its just pure beauty. I am in love. Quote Programmer, Modeller Intel Core i7 930 @ 3.5GHz | GeForce 480 GTX | 6GB DDR3 RAM | Windows 7 Premium x64 Visual Studio 2008 | Photoshop CS3 | Maya 2009 Website: http://srichnet.info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Windows: Visualstudio 2010 all the time and when 2011 comes out the motivation will be even higher as it has FBX and Shader support Mac: Xcode Android: Eclipse Linux: CodeBlocks Quote AV MX Linux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knocks Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Visual studio 2010 and IntelliJ IDEA Quote My first Adobe purchase was Photoshop 2.0, CS6 was my last! < = > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 It's downright trivial to add a silent install option in a game's installation package. I estimate with pretty good confidence that the majority of times a Leadwerks game is or will be run on an end user's computer, it won't involve an installer at all. Someone will email a zip file, or it will be downloaded through a web browser plugin, and no traditional installer program will be used. In any event, when that doesn't work it falls back to me. The OpenAL installer alone has caused me a tremendous amount of problems. It's hard for a technically competent person to understand, but the Windows installation method is utterly broken, for your average consumer. It's safe to say the average consumer doesn't even know how to install a program, and if they did they don't want to, for fear of viruses or crapware. You have to understand, the normal usage model for most people is to purchase a low-price laptop, never reformat or maintain, then throw it out after 12 months and buy another when performance slows down. Therefore, every program they install carries a financial risk because it can make their replacement cost come sooner. I know it's idiotic, but that's really how people are. A lot of people don't even realize you can install a game on a PC and play it. To them, PC gaming = Farmville. I reformatted my neighbor's computer a couple months ago, and now it's covered in Ask.com and other crapware again. I gave up and told her to buy a Mac. Overcoming the barriers to getting a game on the consumer's hard drive is hugely important. It shouldn't be this way, but it is and we have to deal with it until a better system comes along. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 You have to understand, the normal usage model for most people is to purchase a low-price laptop, never reformat or maintain, then throw it out after 12 months and buy another when performance slows down. Hahaha... no wonder US is in a economial crisis Quote AV MX Linux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Actually that would help the economy since people would be spending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Actually that would help the economy since people would be spending Don't thinks so as everyone seems to spend money from their bank credit and not money that they actually have Quote AV MX Linux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Hahaha... no wonder US is in a economial crisis It's our whole culture. Computers, cars, buildings, are all designed to break quickly. According to this article, Windows XP is at about 38%: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/12/windows_7_overtakes_xp I think it's fair to say 95% of Windows XP consumer machines (not developers) don't have the VC 2010 service pack installed. That means Leadwerks3D games won't run out of the box on 36% of end users machines if I use VC 2010. I know you can include it in an installer, but developers will neglect to do so, and we are also looking at alternative installation methods and trying to get file sizes down to a very small size (web browser plugins). If the user has to download something extra, a huge number will turn away at that point. Each one of these screen is an opportunity for you to lose a customer: Little Timmy isn't going to have a clue what this means. Is it a virus?: Even if installer sizes or downloading an extra installer weren't an issue, a large number of people simply won't go through the steps of installing it. I know your opinion makes better technical sense, but the whole point of Leadwerks3D is to address what the market wants and what makes good business sense. MS could have solved this by including the VC 2010 service pack in required Windows updates a year ago, but they didn't. Now they're turning C++ into a .NET monster that requires additional plugins just to run a program. We can't let their bad leadership doom our efforts to reach customers. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouGroove Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Eclipse if totally free, and maintained, evolving ! I like it a lot , but if VS 2010 or other will be official i don't mind they are good also. Quote Stop toying and make games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AggrorJorn Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Isn't it possible to make a silent installer for that? I mean a lot of steam games install C++ redistributable. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/astebner/archive/2010/10/20/10078468.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Taylor Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Isn't it possible to make a silent installer for that? I mean a lot of steam games install C++ redistributable. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/astebner/archive/2010/10/20/10078468.aspx And this is precisely what you're supposed to do. I estimate with pretty good confidence that the majority of times a Leadwerks game is or will be run on an end user's computer, it won't involve an installer at all. Someone will email a zip file, or it will be downloaded through a web browser plugin, and no traditional installer program will be used. Admittedly this is true. I can't help but think from the perspective of someone selling commercial games. Leadwerks, at least from what I've seen on the forums, is most often used for tinkering or visualizations. The engine has a lot of potential, it's just not really being used for much in terms of commercial ventures. In any event, when that doesn't work it falls back to me. The OpenAL installer alone has caused me a tremendous amount of problems. My question is why does this fall back to you? Part of your problem is you're not using a traditional installer nor are you actually silently installing the OpenAL redist. Switch to a reasonable installer and you should be just fine. As for people distributing their own games, it should betheir responsibility to get the 2010 redist package installed for their users, provided it's mentioned explicitly in the documentation you provide. Again, it's obviously your choice. I just don't agree with your reasoning. It's not complex to get a real installation package together, nor is it expensive, NSIS and Inno Setup are both free and fully featured. I also feel that you have a bit of a contradiction here. You're largely targeting high end video hardware. Hardware that your average computer buyer simply doesn't have. Those who do have that hardware tend to have a much better understanding of what they are doing. Running an installer is much less of an issue in this case. Now if you were writing a standard bit of desktop software (say, an office application strictly for the sake of an example), I'd agree with you that every additional screen is going to scare people off. However I'd likely still argue for a silent installation of the VS 2010 redist. Please remember, in a year, there will no longer be ANY support for VS 2008. You won't be able to download it nor will the docs be available any longer. I see this as an important showstopper issue. Quote There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?" Let's make things happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I also feel that you have a bit of a contradiction here. You're largely targeting high end video hardware. Hardware that your average computer buyer simply doesn't have. Those who do have that hardware tend to have a much better understanding of what they are doing. Running an installer is much less of an issue in this case. 90% percent of published Leadwerks3D games will probably focus on low-end graphics, and if they are run on a PC, they will probably be played through a web browser. I'm the last person in the world to admit this, but that's the reality of where the games market is. I'm trying to get the web plugin installer down to about 2 mb. The VC distrib package would triple that size. Not a big deal for you and me, but remember that this will be played by Grandma on her netbook connected to the neighbor's wifi. Of course there's people who do games with high-end graphics, but I can't stay in business if I only provide software for them. At the very least, the engine has to be able to scale between the two extremes. If the VC2008 situation does work out like they are saying now, then I will consider VC 2011, but we've seen MS announce the end of support for something and then keep going. I find it incredible that they no longer support C++ programs out of the box on any version of Windows with a wide install base. Code::Blocks + GCC would probably work better on Windows than Visual Studio, if nothing improves. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Taylor Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 90% percent of published Leadwerks3D games will probably focus on low-end graphics, and if they are run on a PC, they will probably be played through a web browser. I'm the last person in the world to admit this, but that's the reality of where the games market is. I'm trying to get the web plugin installer down to about 2 mb. The VC distrib package would triple that size. Not a big deal for you and me, but remember that this will be played by Grandma on her netbook connected to the neighbor's wifi. To be honest, I wasn't even aware that you were making a browser plugin available. Still, even with the size difference, it's going to be a drop in the bucket compared to any games that actually use the plugin I'd think. And as mentioned, if you use the silent installer, it requires no user interaction to install at all. Of course there's people who do games with high-end graphics, but I can't stay in business if I only provide software for them. At the very least, the engine has to be able to scale between the two extremes. This I agree with entirely. If the VC2008 situation does work out like they are saying now, then I will consider VC 2011, but we've seen MS announce the end of support for something and then keep going. I find it incredible that they no longer support C++ programs out of the box on any version of Windows with a wide install base. Code::Blocks + GCC would probably work better on Windows than Visual Studio, if nothing improves. I think you may have misunderstood. The redist will be supported pretty much permanently. I'm talking about the availability of Visual Studio 2008 to developers using your engine. Microsoft only supports up to one version behind (of the Express Editions that is). VS 2011 is on the way and 2008 won't even be available for download anymore. In addition, I would not recommend GCC/MinGW on windows as the primary development environment. You're going to find the vast majority third party, proprietary, libraries are compatible strictly with Visual Studio. Quote There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?" Let's make things happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Got a link to an MS page about this? Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Richmond Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 90% percent of published Leadwerks3D games will probably focus on low-end graphics, and if they are run on a PC, they will probably be played through a web browser. I'm the last person in the world to admit this, but that's the reality of where the games market is. I'm trying to get the web plugin installer down to about 2 mb. The VC distrib package would triple that size. Not a big deal for you and me, but remember that this will be played by Grandma on her netbook connected to the neighbor's wifi. I don't mean to derail this thread, but I'd like to see your evidence for such stats. The Steam marketplace is fast becoming the biggest marketplace for PC games. I think its a bit rich to be saying 90% of the games you expect LE3D to publish will be via web browser. Quote Programmer, Modeller Intel Core i7 930 @ 3.5GHz | GeForce 480 GTX | 6GB DDR3 RAM | Windows 7 Premium x64 Visual Studio 2008 | Photoshop CS3 | Maya 2009 Website: http://srichnet.info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 http://www.totalpcgaming.com/latest-pc-news/steam-user-accounts-hit-25-million/ 2009 numbers http://mashable.com/2010/02/20/farmville-80-million-users/ Q1 2010 http://androideep.com/angry-birds-download-count-to-android-phones-reaches-30-million.html Heck, there are more people that have downloaded Angry Birds (1 game on a mobile device) than all that are on Steam. I'm no math wiz but... I'm not saying I like farmville or have even ever played it, but it says something about where the most people are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I don't mean to derail this thread, but I'd like to see your evidence for such stats. The Steam marketplace is fast becoming the biggest marketplace for PC games. I think its a bit rich to be saying 90% of the games you expect LE3D to publish will be via web browser. Steam? What's that. Is it a virus? My computer plays Farmville. It's on my Facebook. I like Justin Beiber, he seems like such a nice boy. -typical PC game player, 2011. Quote My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Taylor Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Got a link to an MS page about this? About what specifically? The retirement of VS 2008 Express? No article I can point to. It is however what they've been doing for the last decade. Quote There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?" Let's make things happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Taylor Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I don't mean to derail this thread, but I'd like to see your evidence for such stats. The Steam marketplace is fast becoming the biggest marketplace for PC games. I think its a bit rich to be saying 90% of the games you expect LE3D to publish will be via web browser. He's right. Targeting Facebook is a big deal right now. I'm more curious as to how he intends this to work if developers are using C++. I can certainly see how this would be fairly doable with Lua. @Josh How are you intending the web plugin to work? Strictly by Lua? For C++ users, is each game going to have it's own plugin? Are you going to use a dll hook? Something else? Quote There are three types of people in this world. People who make things happen. People who watch things happen. People who ask, "What happened?" Let's make things happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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