Benton

No I have no problem with your opinions. They are valid points. And my opinion is that you are being to critical, to the point of bashing it. That's how I feel. I am entitled to an opinion am I not?

So now I am a fanboy for defending my opinion. Whatever.

If LE2 suits you just fine by all means use it. I will still use Win7 even when Win8 comes out, not because Win8 is bad, but because Win7 suits me more because I don't have a touch screen. I just felt that you guys were bashing the LE3. Calling it a step backward. However if using a mobile renderer for the first few months means way better scaleability and a better product down the road, I call it a step forward. When I say everyone, I mean the majority. This argument/discussion has gone on way to long. If you don't want to use it because LE2 works better, fine, that's good. But I have a problem with actually bashing it.

Don't think it has been blown out of proportion? You guys keep saying that LE3 does not work for you because you need better graphics, yet Josh has said many many times that the LE3 renderer will be upgraded. He also said that parts of it are already done. I also proved that the mobile renderer can handle good graphics well. So basically you guys need really good visuals for the first part of your project, when you will mostly be programming and doing art. It makes no sense. Start making your game, and when the better renderer comes out add it on. Haha Cassius, well put

OpenGLES 2.0 allows shaders so yes. Once Josh writes a renderer for OpenGL 3.1, or OpenGL 2 or some better OpenGL then the OpenGLES 2.0, then we should be able to write AAA shaders. I am hoping for OpenGL 3+, it irons out the bugs that OpenGL 2 had and also allows that AAA look pretty easy. At least thats what I heard. And I think you are right, it is the shaders that make an AAA game. if you look at something like Halo you don't see any godrays and stuff like that. It is good art. From Wikipedia This is what OpenGLES 2.0 can do, It may not look great, but the screenies are from android, and so that means low res textures and low poly counts. Res up the textures and triple the poly count and it will look just fine. We can write our own shaders, so for a short time when we only get OpenGLES 2.0 we can always write our own AAA shaders. This has been blown out of proportion...we are not getting this but rather this

I am also interested in what NA classifies as "pressure"...

Sign me up.

AAAhhhhhh

Yeah it's only 5 pages too long...

Yeah Josh does a pretty good job keeping the community informed.

No a game has to look like Battlefield 3 for me to consider it AAA GRAPHICS. It does not have to be realistic like Battlefield 3 for it to be AAA graphics, it just needs to have Battlefield 3 art quality and attention to detail. An AAA GAME needs AAA ART AND GAMEPLAY.

AAA graphics = graphics that you see in, say, Battlefield 3...

Yes! Very excited Josh!

Is it possable to make any game without having to touch C++ and just use scripting? I'm willing to use C++ but im just wondering...

What OpenGL version is your mobile renderer?

Level of graphics will be about the same level of the Source Engine? Last I know, Valve makes great looking games with Source.... I think instead of saying "Mobile Renderer" you should have said "Level of graphics that is playable on all platforms but still looks good.

Agreed. LE3 might be so abstract this might only take a few days...

I don't see it taking years to make. Josh could just port LE2 renderer over...maybe a couple months...but I know nothing about this.

Finally, Rick, someone here who is interested in Mobile. The reason nobody from this community wants to use Leadwerks for mobile is because they are here for PC development. If they ever wanted to develop for mobile, they would not be here. Leadwerks 3D will probably bring a lot of new people here go are interested in Mobile. This will be huge because if Josh can pull in bigger profits he will have that renderer ready sooner. It is obvious that other then Alien and Flexman, you guys are not doing game development to make any cash. If you were, you would be making it for mobile. It is basic business to go to where the money is. I don't want to spend a year developing a PC game that makes as much as an iPhone game that I made in four months. I hate mobile for gaming, but then again I hate Macs and they seem to be doing ok... Not using LE3 because of the first release having mobile graphics is ****. You are not going to finish your game and have to wait for better graphics. You can develop the game 100% and then add on better rendering, godrays, stuff like that. To me it's like not wanting to make that racing game in LE3 because the mobile renderer can't make the car look shiny. So you put off development until LE3 comes out with a better renderer. I totally agree that good graphics is important. But you guys have been working on your PC games for a long time, and if you adopt LE3 I don't think you will have a game ready for release before LE3 has a better renderer. You can still make the game with everything but the advanced renderer. I think it's kinda funny that you guys don't want to use LE3 until it gets a better renderer. And I suppose you don't want to start developing until you get that screen that is a couple inches bigger...and you don't want to start development until you get that better mouse...and your keyboard needs replacing. Meanwhile some people actually made a game. And nobody can still show me a game with AAA graphics that one indie made for PC and made money.... P.S. I wrote this on my iPod so sorry for grammar/spelling mistakes.

Half life was AAA for its time. Most mobile games would be AAA 15 years ago. Don't quite understand what you are saying Alien... My point is, any half decent artist can make art that looks good in any engine. You should use an engine based on what it offers and what you need from it. I would rather have a good art pipeline then godrays because at the end of the day no gamer looks at the godrays and say "man this game rocks it has godrays" Look at any AAA game on the market. Imagine poor art in the game. It's not AAA anymore is it? Now imagine an AAA game without the amazing effects. No motion blur? No godrays? No HDR? It will still look good because the art is good. Half Life looked awesome for its time. Now it looks not too good. But it is still fun to play. Go find a tech demo where you walk around on an island. It might look amazing, but all you do is walk around. In 5 years the graphics will be **** and so all you do is walk around in a lame environment. Sound fun? You can't make an AAA game as an indie. Not possable. The AAA games have many many artists. Even if they only had 50, and it took all 50 of them a year to make all the art assets. It would take you 50 years to do it yourself. Realistic? Nope. The only way you can make a good game for PC is to forget about it being an AAA graphics game. Not possable. You need to make good gameplay. Who still plays the original doom? Who still plays FPS's? The original Doom looks like **** now, but we still play the same GAMEPLAY. So anyone who thinks advanced graphic effects make the game: What is more fun? An island demo made in Cryengine or Pacman? Sorry about grammar but I'm on my iPod typing this up.

Josh has already made an amazing renderer once. I bet he could push one out in a couple months, it might just take porting the old one. I watched ShiVa development for close to a year, hoping for improvements. It is now two years overdue, and finally we get some news. They are redesigning the editor. That's it. I waited a whole year so I could make a game with better terrain and graphics. I totally understand how you feel. You guys might want to go somewhere else but here is what everyone is forgetting is that mobile renderer does not = mobile graphics. I means you just don't get some post-processing effects and stuff that is only possable on OpenGL 3+. You know Half Life? Not amazing graphics. But an amazing game. Mobile renderer does not = 256 textures and super low poly count. There is a half life mod that looks amazing. Really realistic. It was just good art! What AAA graphic games have you seen designed by one indie developer for PC? Any? No. Is Minecraft AAA? No. Did it make money? Tonnes. What makes a good game is not just graphics. If that's all you want use UDK. Have fun with it...

Well LE 3.0 will have mobile graphics but they might get upgraded for 3.1, Josh said that he will write a more advance renderer after LE3 is released. How can we expect Josh not to try to draw in new customers. Tell me one business that does not try to gain more market share? If he does not make any money then he stops working on LE cause he needs to get a job and then where are we?

You, my good man, have made my day.

Will we be able to develop for iPhone on PC and then compile and build the app on a Mac? Cause I can't afford a Mac, but I can use a friends macbook to build apps.

Heh heh, I was actually hoping for LE2 terrain with thousands of trees to work on mobile Mobile is where I plan to develop for. The money, unless you have a team, in in mobile. Alone, you have like a 1 in a 1000 chance of making much money on PC. However I don't want PC to be overlooked, because PC is way more fun to develop for.