Future buyer of Leadwerks Engine... A few questions.

[MikeV]

Hello!

 

As the subject indicates, I'm a prospective/future licensee of Leadwerks Engine. I've been checking it out a bit for the past few hours, reading documentation, watching videos, poking around in the editor and so forth. I've been extremely happy with everything I've seen and experienced.

 

As an artist type, it seems extremely straight-forward to work with, the performance is awesome, the toolset is very user-friendly and intuitive and overall, I'm just really liking what I see. I remember being really impressed with the usability of Cartography Shop back when I used it several years ago. Josh just seems to have a really solid grasp on making things intuitive and easy to work with. That's very rare in the indie game engine world, and in the AAA engine world, for that matter.

 

So, while I still have a month left to fully evaluate the engine, I already feel confident I'll be purchasing a license as soon as the funds are available in a few more weeks. It's good that I have a lot more time

 

I guess my first question relates to how Leadwerks manages seamless transitions from outdoor areas to underground/indoor areas. I haven't seen any demos demonstrating it, and I haven't seen anything discussing how it's handled, so I thought I'd ask.

 

Is there any kind of portal or zoning system? A dynamic visibility/culling system, etc? What kind of set up would that entail?

 

Another question I have for now is regarding using 3D World Studio to create structures and such to bring into the LW engine... even if just for mock-ups of buildings or structures, to use 'til I can create the full detail models, etc? Is that a feasible or at all recommended pipeline to work with?

 

And I guess that's all I have for now, question-wise. Any feedback or advice is greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks!

[Josh]

I guess my first question relates to how Leadwerks manages seamless transitions from outdoor areas to underground/indoor areas. I haven't seen any demos demonstrating it, and I haven't seen anything discussing how it's handled, so I thought I'd ask.

 

Is there any kind of portal or zoning system? A dynamic visibility/culling system, etc? What kind of set up would that entail?

Leadwerks Engine 2 uses occlusion culling on lights and animated models, but mostly relies on really fast rendering. It was always designed with indoor/outdoor stuff in mind like Crysis and STALKER, so it handles just about anything pretty well.

 

The new engine uses a hierarchical occlusion system built into the scene octree. This is similar to how Crysis and Umbra work.

 

Another question I have for now is regarding using 3D World Studio to create structures and such to bring into the LW engine... even if just for mock-ups of buildings or structures, to use 'til I can create the full detail models, etc? Is that a feasible or at all recommended pipeline to work with?

We're pretty close to having a full CSG editor in the new game engine. See my blog for more details. Of course, only existing Leadwerks Engine users will have access to that at first. (It's actually cheapest to buy Leadwerks Engine now and upgrade, rather than waiting to pay full price for the new engine.)

[MikeV]

Hiya Josh,

 

Thanks for the info!

 

So, basically, just lay in the terrain, cut holes in the ground and place my underground areas, and the engine will do the heavy lifting? Well that's pretty darn neat. I just came from trying another engine that requires all this placement of portals and anti-portals and zones and all this. Real pain in the neck that was.

 

 

As for the pricing for the full engine, I guess there's going to be a price increase, then, when the new engine comes out? And what time frame are you looking at for the new engine to be released? I'm looking to get a license in about 3 weeks time (I get paid bi-weekly, and next check has rent coming out of it, else I'd be buying it sooner).

 

That's great about the CSG editor built-in to the engine. That's incredibly useful. I was kind of fond of that similar functionality in another engine I checked out (starts with 'T' and rhymes with 'fork') but, as is usual with any tech from that company, it was wonky and annoying to use. If the usability of your built-in CSG is anything near what it was even for Cartography Shop, then that's going to be a beautiful thing. Especially having it built right into the editor. Don't even have to export/import anything.

 

I know "BSP" style modeling is supposed to be all "outdated" now - or so it seems from a lot of remarks I've read. But I don't know, as a means of creating non-organic objects, like buildings and the like, I find it to be far more efficient and easier to work with than modeling and then having to UV unwrap and all that.

 

Anyway.. Good to know! Thanks again.

[Josh]

You may want to research the differences and focus on the new and previous engines, too. Each has features the other lacks. I'm trying to focus on the art pipeline (CSG is part of that) and gameplay mechanics in the new engine, and it will be some time before the new engine's graphics on PC get up to and surpass LE2's graphics.

 

Three weeks will be enough time...probably.

[MikeV]

I take it you mean previous versions of the Leadwerks engine, right? Not as in, "look at other 3D engines from other developers"? 'cause I've looked at a ton of them lol. I'm kind of surprised I didn't come across your engine sooner. Probably would have saved myself a lot of time and aggravation if I had.

 

Well, for the time being, I have the evaluation for the current engine which is giving me plenty to look into, etc.

 

Thanks again!

[Road Kill Kenny]

I take it you mean previous versions of the Leadwerks engine, right? Not as in, "look at other 3D engines from other developers"? 'cause I've looked at a ton of them lol. I'm kind of surprised I didn't come across your engine sooner. Probably would have saved myself a lot of time and aggravation if I had.

 

Well, for the time being, I have the evaluation for the current engine which is giving me plenty to look into, etc.

 

Thanks again!

 

Yeh he means look at the difference between Leadwerks 2.X which is the current one and the upcoming "Leadwerks" (pka LE3D) which is coming out soonish (though nobody but Josh knows exactly how soon that is). The differences are pretty big between them due to the focus shift.

[Canardia]

But Josh just said that 3 weeks will be probably enough time to buy LE2, and get the cheap upgrade to LE3. So LE3 might be released even earlier than 3 weeks.

[Pixel Perfect]

Clearly a discerning artist when it comes to chosing engines! Look forward to you joining the community.

[ZeronSix]

Hi, i'm also thinking about buying Leadwerks, and i also have a question. Will upcoming LE3D's API be similar to old LE2 API?

[DigitalHax]

Well, to a degree. There will no doubt be changes. But the overall flow should be similar/the same.

[smashthewindow]

So, basically, just lay in the terrain, cut holes in the ground and place my underground areas, and the engine will do the heavy lifting?

 

I don't think "cutting" holes are possible hsing the traditional height-map method in Leadwerks.

[Canardia]

I don't think "cutting" holes are possible hsing the traditional height-map method in Leadwerks.

It has been possible to cut holes in terrains since years in LE2

[smashthewindow]

 

It has been possible to cut holes in terrains since years in LE2

 

Can't believe I missed out on that one...

I never used terrain in my games before.

[MikeV]

Yeh he means look at the difference between Leadwerks 2.X which is the current one and the upcoming "Leadwerks" (pka LE3D) which is coming out soonish (though nobody but Josh knows exactly how soon that is). The differences are pretty big between them due to the focus shift.

 

Ah okay, that makes sense, then.

 

I assume the introduction of CSG editing is a part of that shift in focus you speak of. If so, then I agree with it! I personally think there's plenty of room for it still in environment design. After posting in this thread last night, I went and checked out a few of Josh's blogs on the subject, and my view of CSG seems to be right in line with his in terms of the benefits of using CSG over creating polysoup models in another 3D app.

 

If you can put together a fairly complex building using straight-up blocks for everything, or even just mock things up to get the scale and layout right of everything, then why go through the steps of modeling, uv-unwrapping, texturing, exporting, converting, etc. etc. for the same effect? If it's a tool that speeds up or makes that process easier, then why not use it? That's what I think anyway.

[MikeV]

Clearly a discerning artist when it comes to chosing engines! Look forward to you joining the community.

 

Wellll... I don't know how "discerning" I am, considering how long it took me to find and try out Leadwerks. I do appreciate the compliment though!

 

I just appreciate a design environment that empowers me to do what I want to do, rather than one that feels like I'm fighting it, having to constantly refer to a manual, or dig through mountains of obtuse and unintuitive menus and windows every step of the way.

 

With some of the engines I've looked at, I have seriously wondered - not being facetious here - what the creators were trying to do, or if they understood their intended userbase at all.

[Josh]

f you can put together a fairly complex building using straight-up blocks for everything, or even just mock things up to get the scale and layout right of everything, then why go through the steps of modeling, uv-unwrapping, texturing, exporting, converting, etc. etc. for the same effect? If it's a tool that speeds up or makes that process easier, then why not use it? That's what I think anyway.

CSG is a total paradigm shift. With CSG you can design your game levels right in the editor and see immediately what your changes look like. You should check out our last Google Hangout recording on our YouTube channel. Aggror's eyes lit up when I showed the pathfinding dynamically adjusting as I was editing the level.

 

You don't have to use it, but if you're designing the kind of geometry most game indoor game levels consist of, it makes the experience much more pleasant and creative. I have the capability to design a level in 3ds max, but I'm never going to bother because it's too much work. With CSG, I will put together some simple game levels of my own.

[MikeV]

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CSG is a total paradigm shift. With CSG you can design your game levels right in the editor and see immediately what your changes look like. You should check out our last Google Hangout recording on our YouTube channel. Aggror's eyes lit up when I showed the pathfinding dynamically adjusting as I was editing the level.

 

You don't have to use it, but if you're designing the kind of geometry most game indoor game levels consist of, it makes the experience much more pleasant and creative. I have the capability to design a level in 3ds max, but I'm never going to bother because it's too much work. With CSG, I will put together some simple game levels of my own.

 

Funny you mention that. I'm at the very end of that very video and you're wrapping it up as I type this. I've been listening to it while here at work. I did check out that bit with the automatic navigation and, I agree... that is pretty darn awesome. And yeah, it was great seeing his expression lol. Can't say I blame him though.

 

As a designer, it's extremely awesome and inspiring to see such effort put into making what I do (or will be doing, anyway) as streamlined, intuitive and empowering as possible. I don't know how much you've messed around with other indie engines or their toolsets (I know you mention Crytek, Unreal and Source a bit), but your focus and execution on that kind of ease of workflow is so woefully rare in the indie game scene - and that's going back to Cartography Shop, as I've mentioned before.

 

As a (wannabe/aspiring) environment/level designer, it's exciting to think that I can finally have a nearly 1-to-1 ratio of "having an idea", or a sketch, etc... and then implementing that idea quickly in the editor and then see it in action with a single button press. Very, very cool.

 

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on those tools personally

 

I'm also interested in learning Lua so I can work on implementing my own interaction and such for my prototype. I've typically shied away from learning any kind of programming, since my previous attempts at learning have been rather fruitless (I'm firmly a "right-brainer"). But I think I'm going to give it a serious and wholehearted go this time.

[Josh]

Thank you. I'm glad to see people are receptive to my ideas.

 

I was focused solely on performance and optimization for a long time, and had to go back to my way of thinking with 3D World Studio to make a nice toolset that was pleasant to use.

[MikeV]

Thank you. I'm glad to see people are receptive to my ideas.

 

I was focused solely on performance and optimization for a long time, and had to go back to my way of thinking with 3D World Studio to make a nice toolset that was pleasant to use.

 

No problem. Credit where it's due.

 

Yeah I recall that bit in the video where you're talking about being able to focus on usability, and then put really good graphics tech on top of that, rather than going the other way around.

 

One thing I dig about LW's terrain system is how you can paint directly on the height map, or normal map, etc. I think that's going to make terrain editing for a larger area a lot easier, since I can rough in the general shape of the area, and then go back in and fine-tune it. Is there any way to load in a sorta template background image to trace over? I hadn't actually checked into that last night when I was checking it out.

[AggrorJorn]

You can 'paint' the terrain with a brush so that it becomes invisible. You can use that to go from the terrain to underground buildings.

[cassius]

Good tutorial. I was able to follow it easily unlike two I watched recently on normal mapping.

MikeV: yes you can use 3dws with le 2.5.

[Josh]

One thing I dig about LW's terrain system is how you can paint directly on the height map, or normal map, etc. I think that's going to make terrain editing for a larger area a lot easier, since I can rough in the general shape of the area, and then go back in and fine-tune it. Is there any way to load in a sorta template background image to trace over? I hadn't actually checked into that last night when I was checking it out.

Yes, there is a base texture you can set that will stretch across the scene. There's a blend value to blend each texture layer with the base texture.

[MikeV]

Yes, there is a base texture you can set that will stretch across the scene. There's a blend value to blend each texture layer with the base texture.

 

That is a beautiful thing.

 

Thanks!