Josh Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 right now, i see LW sailing of in the direction of the land of the non coder, pre packaged, connect the lines type of tool... prepackaged and ready for the masses... the main difference between 3 and 2 is that it will no longer be coupled to the rich graphics renderer (at first)... That's correct, but at the same time Leadwerks3D offers much better support for C++ programming. The documentation is all C++, it uses proper classes and syntax, and has much better debugging. I think this is important so that beginners have somewhere to graduate to after they master the basics. It also ensures we have a shot with the professional studios. Other engines that didn't offer direct C++ programming flopped with console developers. You have three levels you can work at with Leadwerks3D: -Synapse (No programming) -Script (basic programming) -C++ (low-level programming) These aren't mutually exclusive, since they all work together. In fact, teams of people can work at different levels on the same project together. The C++ programmer would write the basic game structure, while the script programmer would write special gameplay scripts and expose functions to be called in Synapse. The level designer would build the scenery and connect objects together to create sequences of events and control the flow of gameplay. 1 My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Red Ocktober Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 does the editor screenshots that you've shown represent indications of the level of graphics the of initial renderer, or will it be significantly different... can you elaborate just a lil on this aspect... thx... --Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 The C++ programmer could write modules, which the game logic designer then utilizes in his Synapse work. For example some highly optimized C module for verlet particles, or sqlite/postgresql implementation, or some procedural texture generator. ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 does the editor screenshots that you've shown represent indications of the level of graphics the of initial renderer, or will it be significantly different... can you elaborate just a lil on this aspect... thx... --Mike The basic renderer is supposed to have graphics around the level of Source Engine. That will be our baseline, across the board. My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Red Ocktober Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 The basic renderer is supposed to have graphics around the level of Source Engine. That will be our baseline, across the board. thx J... there... now that shouldn't be tooo bad for those iPad rts projects... all is not totally lost... i can see though where those devs with open environment scenes in their plans might have a lil problem with this... on first blush, i think this should be an acceptable level of graphics... at least for a while... i guess it really depends on what you're making... @Metatron The C++ programmer could just write modules, which the game logic designer then utilizes in his Synapse work. isn't that a lil backwards... doesn't one usually figure out the logic before laying down the code... also, the c++ code monkey might feel a lil redundant if all he was there for, was to feed logic to someone who couldn't code, and whose job it was to connect the lines --Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixel Perfect Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I don't think people are complaining so much as just expressing surprise; as the low end graphics capability only on the initial release was not really highlighted in the road map as far as I recall. Personally I was never going to make the move to LE3 in the near future as I have no need for it but I appreciate that the features are attractive for a lot of people. I only wonder how competitive LE3 version 1.0, for lack of a better description, will be with regard to the competition in that area. Until we know the price and the actual features in detail its difficult to determine. Intel Core i5 2.66 GHz, Asus P7P55D, 8Gb DDR3 RAM, GTX460 1Gb DDR5, Windows 7 (x64), LE Editor, GMax, 3DWS, UU3D Pro, Texture Maker Pro, Shader Map Pro. Development language: C/C++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benton Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Level of graphics will be about the same level of the Source Engine? Last I know, Valve makes great looking games with Source.... I think instead of saying "Mobile Renderer" you should have said "Level of graphics that is playable on all platforms but still looks good. Windows 7 Professional 64 bit, 16 gigs ram, 3.30GHz Quad Core, GeForce GTX 460 one gig, Leadwerks 2.5, Blender 2.62, Photoshop CS3, UU3D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 isn't that a lil backwards... doesn't one usually figure out the logic before laying down the code... also, the c++ code monkey might feel a lil redundant if all he was there for, was to feed logic to someone who couldn't code, and whose job it was to connect the lines --Mike I think it would work quite well, because usually the logic of C coders is so out of this world, that their game logic would not be understood by anyone. A C coder is just happy to make super fast code, which processes trillions of bits per nanosecond, or elgantly avoids calculating those at all using some optimizations The game project leader will anyway fight with the game logic designer, so better leave the C coder out of their problems. ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furbolg Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 LE was never an graphics engine, which for example Ogre3D is. An graphics engine doesn't have these features, which LE has: - Sound - Bitmap fonts - Networking - Loading of 3D models - Loading of textures - Loading of sounds - Loading of fonts - Editing of scenes - Loading from pak files - Creating a main window - Lua scripting - Keyboard input - Mouse input - Physics So Metatron(Lumooja) what does a graphics engine do then ? Initialiase OpenGL/Direct3D ? Sorry but this is one of your typical interpretation facts. As i mentioned (asked) some posts above, Josh could (!) create an LE2 Render Wrapper. This shouldn't too much work (compared with creating a new renderer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I should have described that better: "mobile graphics that don't suck". As i mentioned (asked) some posts above, Josh could (!) create an LE2 Render Wrapper. This shouldn't too much work (compared with creating a new renderer). I hadn't thought of that, but it might be a good shortcut to get the best of both. It sounds crazy but it would actually work, without requiring two copies of all meshes. 1 My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benton Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 What OpenGL version is your mobile renderer? Windows 7 Professional 64 bit, 16 gigs ram, 3.30GHz Quad Core, GeForce GTX 460 one gig, Leadwerks 2.5, Blender 2.62, Photoshop CS3, UU3D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 What OpenGL version is your mobile renderer? OpenGLES 2.0 My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 @Furbolg: A graphics engine (in my definition), uses an graphics API, like OpenGL, DirectX, Wing, etc... which gives the graphics engine the possibility to access the graphics card directly. Then the graphics engine adds high level graphics commands, like rendering a scene (not all graphics engines use a scene graph either, it depends what they find faster), adding vector or voxel based 3D models to the scene (it's totally open to the user in what format they are on disk, or in what format the textures, if even needed, are on disk, or even if they are on disk at all (he might want to load everything from the network or some other media)), adding some default shaders and post processing effects, vector based shadows, texture based shadows, voxel based shadows, 3d fog, distance fog, particle systems, perhaps also ocean rendering, cloud rendering, rain and snow rendering, although those again need a verlet physics engine to work properly with a game (since they need to collide and animate). Initializing the graphics driver, is also not necessarily a part of the graphics engine, since the user might want to use his own framework (freeglut, glut, glfw, sfml, sdl, etc...) to initialize the graphics and create a graphics window. ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benton Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Is it possable to make any game without having to touch C++ and just use scripting? I'm willing to use C++ but im just wondering... Windows 7 Professional 64 bit, 16 gigs ram, 3.30GHz Quad Core, GeForce GTX 460 one gig, Leadwerks 2.5, Blender 2.62, Photoshop CS3, UU3D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Is it possable to make any game without having to touch C++ and just use scripting? I'm willing to use C++ but im just wondering... Yes, the script debugger in Leadwerks3D is very good. My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benton Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Yes! Very excited Josh! Windows 7 Professional 64 bit, 16 gigs ram, 3.30GHz Quad Core, GeForce GTX 460 one gig, Leadwerks 2.5, Blender 2.62, Photoshop CS3, UU3D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I am developing a 1 zip file idea, where you have a C++ IDE and compiler in 1 file and can extract it on any computer you go. It has also a setup.exe, which does the one and only system change you need to do: add the bin path of the tool to your system path. Even that seems too hard for many newbies, so just clicking with the mouse once should be easy enough. For now I have only basic OpenGL framework, so when LE3 alpha comes out, I can integrate it also into this pocket game development tool, and nobody should ever have problems with setting up a C++ compiler and C++ IDE anymore. It's kinda like the same idea that the user should not have to choose what browser he uses, because each browser supports different things, and might not work with your web site correctly. You just provide a tool which has been tested and is supported to play the web site. The same way I provide only a tool which can be used to code in C++ with LE3. And no other things need to be installed. It's also similar to the idea of BlitzMax or Blitz3D. You can just zip them, and then unzip them on another computer, and everything is included and works. ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I never thought about it, but you can even do insane things like plug other engines into Leadwerks3D. For example, you could make a Blitz3DSDK-based renderer for it! My job is to make tools you love, with the features you want, and performance you can't live without. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Interesting, so it works in both ways That's truly a programmer friendly engine concept then. If another graphics engine is written correctly, it should kinda work like a subroutine in a standard glut renderfunc loop (which basically does only glBegin, glEnd, glSwapBuffers), so it could be even added and mixed with the LE3D renderer. ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 And nobody can still show me a game with AAA graphics that one indie made for PC and made money.... Depends on your definition of "AAA graphics" or your defintion of just "AAA" AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benton Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 AAA graphics = graphics that you see in, say, Battlefield 3... Windows 7 Professional 64 bit, 16 gigs ram, 3.30GHz Quad Core, GeForce GTX 460 one gig, Leadwerks 2.5, Blender 2.62, Photoshop CS3, UU3D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 So an AAA title for you then must be of the same level graphics wise as Battlefield 3? AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canardia Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 My friend told me he had to turn off the graphics in BF3, because everyone else did it too, to get advantage in hardcore multiplayer action. The "AAA" graphics was just causing zero vision to the player due to all debris, fog, explosion and fire effects, while the other players had turned them off to get maximum kills per second. So much for AAA games Yeah Crysis 1 is still a nice AAA game, but it really doesn't work in multiplayer, or any game which doesn't have insane expensive assets. Low end provides MUCH better quality for indie asset levels, like fast framerate, long range shadows. Actually I had a funny idea a few days ago: you don't even need shadows or textures if you make a hidden line rendered game (like tron or elite). It looks amazing with everything black and hidden line rendering. No lights, no shadows, and it still looks 1000 times better than a game which has textures and lights, but no shadows (like Unity on mobile). ■ Ryzen 9 ■ RX 6800M ■ 16GB ■ XF8 ■ Windows 11 ■ ■ Ultra ■ LE 2.5 ■ 3DWS 5.6 ■ Reaper ■ C/C++ ■ C# ■ Fortran 2008 ■ Story ■ ■ Homepage: https://canardia.com ■ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Producer Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 huh, 5 pages of comments and arguments about expectations, graphics engine definitions, making games.... ...and all I did was to ask "when it's going to be released" Intel Dual Core 3GHz / GeForce GTS 450 - 1024 MB / Driver ver 267.59 / 8 GB RAM / Win 7 - 64 bit / LE2.50 / BMAX 1.48 game producer blog - Dead Wake Zombie Game powered by Leadwerks Engine Twitter - Unfollow me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marleys Ghost Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 huh, 5 pages of comments and arguments about expectations, graphics engine definitions, making games.... ...and all I did was to ask "when it's going to be released" C'mon GP you should know, nothing is straight forward around here ... lol AMD Bulldozer FX-4 Quad Core 4100 Black Edition 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333Mhz Memory Gigabyte GeForce GTX 550 Ti OC 1024MB GDDR5 Windows 7 Home 64 bit BlitzMax 1.50 • Lua 5.1 • MaxGUI 1.41 • UU3D Pro • MessiahStudio Pro • Silo Pro 3D Coat • ShaderMap Pro • Hexagon 2 • Photoshop, Gimp & Paint.NET LE 2.5/3.4 • Skyline • UE4 • CE3 SDK • Unity 5 • Esenthel Engine 2.0 Marleys Ghost's YouTube Channel • Marleys Ghost's Blog "I used to be alive like you .... then I took an arrow to the head" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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