Leadwerks 3 Features

[Josh]

oriented to be cross platform in its essence, including Mac/Linux as well as consoles, out of box,

I am definitely interested in supporting Mac ASAP, since iMacs now come with decent GPUs. Not so sure about Linux, but I am willing to provide it if there is a demand.

 

I'm not worried about the timing of the consoles, because if I wait for the right time to start, it will never come. Even if The PS4 comes out 6 months after LE for PS3, the process of getting it on the PS3 will still be good learning for the PS4.

 

I think they'll try to make the current generation last as long as possible because it takes such a long time to recover the money from a new console.

[Mumbles]

I am definitely interested in supporting Mac ASAP, since iMacs now come with decent GPUs. Not so sure about Linux, but I am willing to provide it if there is a demand.

 

Interesting, I would have moved to Linux before Mac to be perfectly honest. Both are unix derivatives, but Linux can use absolutely any hardware that Windows can. I guarantee you that some Linux users (maybe not on these forums) will have GTX 480's working with full hardware acceleration, which no mac user can claim. Also, some Linux people will also be maxing out their 8-core i7's (or 6-core Phenom II's), although that may not offer too much more power than the Intel Xeon chips now found in current high spec macs. Plus the new high power macs come with ATI graphics cards, and we know the numerous troubles your engine has had with ATI cards previously. They maybe fixed now, but can you guarantee that with a new platform architecture, that they won't mysteriously re-appear?

 

People were swayed to Macs more than Linux because Apple actually advertised, and boasted such features as "No viruses", "Doesn't crash", "Has an office suite fully compatible with Microsoft Office". Linux offered all of those, but for free.

 

Whilst we Linux users are the silent minority, I'm sure you know that Lumooja has C++ compiled exes using your engine, working in wine (BlitzMax exes always worked in wine), which tells you Linux hardware is already up to the job. Once it works there, Mac users aren't thick, they now that mac support is either imminent, or it will work at the same time... But hey - your engine, your choice. But unless you already have a mac (or have access to someone else's) you can support Linux first without having to pay a large amount of money upfront.

[Josh]

Interesting, I would have moved to Linux before Mac to be perfectly honest.

I have never heard of any successful commercial software for Linux. There might be something, but I have never heard of it. Last time I asked about Linux, the next thing the users asked for was for it to be free. Look at the comments here. Not only do Linux users want their games to be free, they want the source code, too!:

http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/59180#commentthis

 

How many Linux users would actually pay for software? I have no idea. It would be nice if there were some examples that could be pointed out as evidence.

[Canardia]

Linux users would actually pay more for software, because they know they pay for a software which runs on their favorite OS, the same thing applies for Mac users. I loved to buy software for my Amiga too, but with PC DOS software I always felt that my money is going to people who don't support a good OS.

 

Source code is good to have too, and people are ready to pay even more for it. The source code can be very important when the company who wrote the software stops existing, and you need some urgent fix or new feature. Even if you are not a coder yourself, the source helps you to pay programmers to make the wanted fixes and features for you.

[Josh]

Linux users would actually pay more for software, because they know they pay for a software which runs on their favorite OS, the same thing applies for Mac users

I believe you want that to be true because you want a Linux version to exist, but I don't know if it is an accurate statement. Do you have any examples of successful products you can point out?

[Canardia]

Yes, for example SUSE Linux, it's a commercial Linux for enterprise server OS.

Also Red Hat Enterprise Linux is commercial and aimed at enterprise use.

Here's a list of commercial Linux software: http://lin-app.com/

And of course many of the normal Windows software is available as Linux and Mac versions too: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=14959955&linkID=9242259

and the pricing:

http://store.autodesk.com/store?SiteID=adsk&Locale=en_US&Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&productID=185461300&pgm=12938000&ThemeID=1293100&Currency=USD&resid=THa4ggoHAi0AACTeVk8AAAAk&rests=1282848897779

[Marleys Ghost]

Here's a list of commercial Linux software: http://lin-app.com/

 

 

so how successful were those on Linux?

[Canardia]

so how successful were those on Linux?

A single sale on Linux was more succesful than 100 sales on windows.

[macklebee]

A single sale on Linux was more succesful than 100 sales on windows.

so with that logic, you should charge 100 times more for linux apps

[Canardia]

so with that logic, you should charge 100 times more for linux apps

No, there are companies also who charge nothing for the Linux version, but only for the Windows and Mac version. I think I would do that too, since it's an interesting and aggressive pro-Linux approach

It works, because it's based on the assumption that people are tied to Windows, so even if the Linux version is free, they would still buy the Windows version.

[macklebee]

you must live in a nice fantasy world... its always amusing how you make things up and say them as facts just because you want something to be that way...

[Marleys Ghost]

A single sale on Linux was more succesful than 100 sales on windows.

 

 

So not very succesfull then ..

[Canardia]

you must live in a nice fantasy world... its always amusing how you make things up and say them as facts just because you want something to be that way...

All I say are facts, or can you prove something wrong? Why do I have to prove everything I say?

[macklebee]

A single sale on Linux was more succesful than 100 sales on windows.

 

kind of hard to prove something is wrong when its obviously has no basis in facts... its like saying God is a 12 headed teddy bear with lasers for eyes... you're right I cannot prove otherwise, but you cannot prove the statement is correct.

[Canardia]

The statement is correct because a Linux sale has more ideological value than monetary value. It's a ideological breakthrough, an illumination of humankind, a step to the right path.

[macklebee]

well idealogy doesn't put food on Josh's table... and considering you yourself have already shown that LE will run in wine on linux, what's the point of Josh spending time on a linux version.

[Canardia]

The point is that Android is also Linux.

[Mumbles]

Debian, which I use, is very much ruled by free, and open source software, but that didn't stop Epic Games charging for UT2003, and id charging for Doom 3. Both games got their source released eventually, but not before the companies had capitalised on the investment, but that doesn't mean people are going to hunt you down and give you a good beating until you hand over your source code. That, and you can still install non-free apps anyway, but the userbase would rather you didn't, and to download any non-free software from the "repositories" first requires you to edit your config files, so it's by no means impossible.

 

Obviously, you would get a larger return on your investment once macs are supported, those machines are for people with more money than sense, so they'll pay loads for it (Yes, it's not just Lumooja that makes statements like that). The difference is, you can get can basically get your engine working on a unix derivative without having to pay such ridiculous amounts of money for a machine that is most likely inferior to your current Windows based machine in every way.

 

Sadly, I had to use macs at uni, and if you open up the terminal, they accept almost every single one of the standard commands that Linux does (being the standard unix commands that they are built on top of). It's only a successful platform due to its long running Photoshop dominance, and visual quality of the screens. Much as I don't like majority of the system, you can't fault the quality of the screens. Every single image always looks nicer on those screens.

[Marleys Ghost]

ideological value

 

 

 

 

Well I think that answered Josh's enquiry, and mine

[macklebee]

Mumbles, now that makes sense... thanks for the enlightening point of view and not just prodigy garbage spewing... it would seem that it would be an easier path forward based on what you mentioned.

[Canardia]

Mumbles makes a good point: Debian.

I didn't understand the point of the rest of her message

[Mumbles]

This was originally an edit, but took so long, may as well be a message in its own right:

 

well idealogy doesn't put food on Josh's table... and considering you yourself have already shown that LE will run in wine on linux, what's the point of Josh spending time on a linux version.

 

Not everyone wants to install wine, and just because LE 2 works fine, that's no guarantee that LE 3 will. There's a large number of existing games out there that wine cannot load because they are built by crappy programmers that utilise things that need admin rights. Unlike windows where you were expected to leave your system vulnerable until the creation of (the annoying) UAC, that's not the philosophy for Linux. You run as a lowly user, so that rogue programs can't start deleting your data. Unfortunately, SafeDisc (and similar) requires admin rights because it installs a device driver. wine won't agree to raise its privileges so it can't install, net effect: games protected by SafeDisc don't work. I don't think anyone here is going to integrating SafeDisc with their games, but the same goes for anything which requires admin rights.

 

Whereas of course, a native linux executable will ask for the root password if it needs it, at which point the user can decide if they trust the program's author, and provide the password, or not as the case may be.

 

Of course, this just my reasoning as to why I'm surprised Josh went for macs first. At the end of the day, nothing I've said there is going to change his mind about the development path. And if Linux is supported natively in the future, wouldn't mind ..that.. much if it played second fiddle to the mac.

[macklebee]

i will take your word for it mumbles... but it still comes down to whether or not there would be much of a demand... 1 linux sale for every 100 windows sales is not much of a return on an investment - the investment being the time that Josh has to spend on creating a linux version... and that was the question Josh (and MG) were both asking... not to be answered by some made up rhetoric simply because someone wanted something.

[Mumbles]

but it still comes down to whether or not there would be much of a demand...

 

Oh, I know that, I just don't think it would be as much of a waste of time as people may be inclined to think. Obviously, I've never actually written a program for a mac, but I'd be very surprised if it involved a large scale re-write between Linux and Mac...

 

First year at uni my lecturer made a mass announcement that (regarding linux and mac) "cosmetic differences aside, the platforms are the same". This came about because we were using macs - that went down just before a programming (Java) assignment was due in, and most people in the group had hinted that they were going to submit a "mitigating circumstances" form on the ground that the computers they thought they needed were unavailable. Now in the case of Java there is no concern, the Java Virtual Machine interprets the code at run time, but I can't see C being massively different either.

[Canardia]

If you want to make money only, but no innovation, ideology and technology, then you should go to the wallstreet. Game development is not about money only, indeed money plays a role of maybe 10% in it. And at some point people have enough money, that it's not worth anything anymore. You have a house, smart car, job, internet connection. You don't need anything else, so you spend your money and live on arts, innovation, ideologies.