tournamentdan
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Posts posted by tournamentdan
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I believe leadwerks automatically converts an animated model into a skinned mesh. All of your groups are taken out at conversion to create one skinned mesh. You would need a way to override the skinning process.
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As far as I remember. Dynamic navmesh was taken out due to performance problems.
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I would draw a radius for every Building and every Unit and would detect collisions to avoid this. Or just use aabb
I agree. This is a fairly common practice in AI engines. Instead of updating the nav mesh they create what they call AI mesh. They use multiple raycasts that are parented to the character controller. With those raycasts you can detect the AI mesh and use it for cover nodes or even nonpathable walking space. For objects that are going to move. You can parent the AI mesh to a object like your building or crate or barrel. This can be done with physics mesh also but not all areas of the map will have a physics mesh.
I will be using this technique so cars and pedestrians can tell the difference between a side walk and street. That way I only use one nav mesh for both.
Check out this video for some ideas.
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Dude, Yougroove, stop.
No, its ok. I would like to thank yougroove. Thank you for finally giving me a good enough reason to hit the block content button. My only advice is to remember that you have all ready been banned from one video game engine community.
...nobody said it cant be done..i haven't seen a one post saying that..
You never really said it directly. But when you say...
it will kill frame rate in a heartbeat,
And.
or it will be very slow..
At least to me that means that it will not work because it will be to slow.
.DX9 can do it just fine and its well documented in DX9 SDK, so its already how long?? 10 years?
I see that your experience with tessellation is with DX9. To be honest, I can understand your apprehension towards tessellation because of DX9. I have already answered this comment with a previous post. So I do not sound like a broken record. I"ll just quote myself.
There were earlier version of tesselation before dx11 and opengl4. But they were not too performace friendly. Tesselation became realtime performance friendly after dx11 and opengl4.
. There is a reason why mentioned technique is not become a 'standard' yet, even exist for some time,
I have also previously answered this comment with...
This has not been widely used because the general public has not had the hardware. Game studios are not going to make a game for a couple people. As the last couple years have gone by. More and more people have up graded their hardware. So now it is becoming more and more popular.
.however, having in mind that modern hardware have huge vertex buffers, capable to store enormous amount of vertices, so, tessellation is really not a necessary option to have really even if you want to downsample
The savings are not only in memory. Vertex buffers are different from rendered polygons right. Or do I have this wrong?
The whole idea of a LOD system is to render as many polygons closest to the camera. With tessellation you can render more polygons closer to the camera while lightening the load on memory. Win win in my book.
@Naughty Alien: I hope you understand I am not arguing with you. Just having a discussion. I certainly like and respect you for helping me in the past and also continuously helping the Leadwerks community.
@ Rick: I hope you do not think that I am trying to shove this tessellation **** down your throat. I guess I got stuck in a loop because I just felt like people were not understanding me. LOD obviously has worked over the years. I just plan to try and make large worlds that are populated with uncommon models.
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@tournametdan if I understand what you are saying, instead of starting off with a regular model with all the details already present then subtracting polygons to create the lower poly lod versions, Create an almost featureless model such as (since I had to scroll past it) a Lightning model where you don't model the clothes and the hair resulting in a low poly model then selectively tessellate the features back into the mesh resulting into a normal poly mesh.
This would be a very interesting concept to put into practice, but I have a feeling that even if we could use the same shader to generate the tessellation, we would need to do substantial work making the displacement map. This seems to me a demoscene level of dedication to creating the smallest most effectient way to model, store and render an object
I'm just a noob at actual opengl coding, I've created obj model viewers and such from scratch but shaders are beyond my comprehension atm. Let me know if I'm talking out my *** or if I just need to be corrected on certain points.
Actual it would take less work to create assets for tessellation. I have to do a bunch of stuff right now. But in a little bit. I will gladly give kind of a general process on character creation for LOD and Tessellation.
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rather than have tessellation over every single character..other people in some AAA ranked studios, realized that and I dont understand whats the problem here.
Not every character or model would be tessellated at the same time or every frame. You would set distances from camera. Just like LOD. I mean you wouldn't want to change every single LOD on the map at the same time right?
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..tessellation is no magic and rather simple process, yet it can be time GPU time consuming..there is no doubt that it can be used, but fundamental question is, do you really need it when modern hardware can crunch triangles necessary for good looking model with ease..it is truth that in such scenario, use of tessellation would be downsampling, in order to get less triangles to render..however, having in mind that modern hardware have huge vertex buffers, capable to store enormous amount of vertices, so, tessellation is really not a necessary option to have really even if you want to downsample your character mesh..point is, if you have not so many characters on scene, and using modern hardware, you really dont need any tessellation as LOD on mentioned characters..if you have plenty of characters (eg. 100), in order to keep your performance up, you will most probably rely on instancing in order to populate such amount of characters(same skeletal/mesh with different textures), rather than have tessellation over every single character..other people in some AAA ranked studios, realized that and I dont understand whats the problem here..i see tessellation well used over static geometry, but not at all on animated characters (if we talking modern hardware)..
If game need to be executed on modern and not so modern hardware, and far as im, as a developer concerned, I want that,,in that case, use of tessellation is no go for both, characters as well as geometry, because chances are, it will not work on plenty configurations or it will be very slow..all in all..its nice and not worth trouble you may get yourself involved..simple as it is..
You keep say that tessellation is slow and yet never provide any bench mark on this. I have. 1.6 billion a second. Which I am guessing is more than leadwerks can render a second.
.if you have plenty of characters (eg. 100), in order to keep your performance up, you will most probably rely on instancing in order to populate such amount of characters(same skeletal/mesh with different textures), rather than have tessellation over every single character.This is kind of bland and boring isn't it. Really? Every character the same size and shape. Just different normal and texture maps to tell them apart. If only there was a better way. Wait there is. How about use one low poly humanoid primitive. And create each and every character from it (primitive) with tessellation. And since I now have less textures,bones,mesh taking space. I create more junk to throw in a game.
If game need to be executed on modern and not so modern hardware, and far as im, as a developer concerned, I want that,,in that case, use of tessellation is no go for both, characters as well as geometry, because chances are, it will not work on plenty configurations or it will be very slow..all in all..its nice and not worth trouble you may get yourself involved..simple as it is..OpendGL4 is OpenGL4. It will not work for lesser hardware. So the fall back renderer is what we have to be "backwards compatible" for hardware on a PC. I am sorry but I am looking for graphics better than that. Unless you are talking about phones and tablets and **** laptops.
Obviously traditional LOD has worked over the years. But to me, I am just kind of getting tired of seeing the same models in a game. Over and over again.
The type of game depends on the systems you need for your game. LOD does work. However if you want bigger and more populated games. You need to find or figure new innovative ways.
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Just to show you why i think Tesselation is useless, the model without any norml map is already very well rounded, why tesselation ?
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@yougroove, you are still not understanding things here. First off you can see at the top of this picture that this model has a total of 34,327 triangles. Which is kind of high for a top LOD. For some reason when you think of tessellation. You are only thinking of a high poly count dense mesh. I have no where mentioned to Tessellate a model as high or higher than 34,327 triangles. I am saying you can go from a low poly basic humanoid shaped mesh,
and at different ranges from the camera Tessellate the model to a MEDIUM POLY COUNT OR A HIGH POLY COUNT LIKE YOUR 34,327 TRIANGLE MODEL.
Everything except for one thing I have mentioned is not theory. This stuff has been and are being used today. The only theory I mentioned is the ability to create a complete 3d object with a two sided plane. Let's say on a tree trunk it may be hard to hide the seams of the back to back planes. Unless you create a lot of detail in the bark. Then it would be easy to hide the seams. It would be even easier to hide the seams in a door jam or walls where they can intersect.
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Could you really have 1 cube for inside the house? I mean we are talking the inside of a house here. Can tessellation really make all the different kinds of rooms needed in a house from 1 cube and a texture map?
Take a look at this picture. Displacement map on the left, and a tessellated mesh with the displacement map applied on the right.
The displacement map could be altered to make the reliefs higher in the mesh. Which could easily be used for solid indoor walls.(or a cool maze) You would still need to use the two sided face technique for the indoor doorways. The rest of the indoor outside walls,windows,doors can be created from the side faces of the before mentioned cube.
Here is the link to the two sided technique I mentioned.
http://www.katsbits.com/tutorials/blender/double-sided-faces-different-materials.php
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This is just a small example of the huge possibility's of using tessellation for level of detail management(LOD) .
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hummm... hummm... anyone can do the way he wants no ? why your method should be the best ?
@tournament :
Well , make a demonstration, a little demo with a character in Leadwerks 3.
Show us how it is ? easy or not ? will you really make good LOD for character ?
I just think it's impossible to have good result you expect using tesselation.
Enought talk,if you think you are right , and have the solution, be concrete now, you have tesselation with LE3 , so just bring us a demo.
I gladly will when I get a chance. As I said before I am extremely busy right now. I am glad to say that things have been set in motion for me to reach my goals in video game land. I just need to get my development computers put back together and this darn house remodeled. As you can see my office/mini studio is getting close.
@Naughty Alien
As i said before, tessellation is nice thing but doesn't really feel necessary for characters if your game running on latest hardware, as characters could look already very very good, without any dynamic altering such as tessellation.You keep only thinking about tessellation on the extreme high poly count end. The poly count that we have right now in a "high poly LOD" is good enough. WE DO NOT NEED TO GO IN HIGHER DETAIL THAN A HIGH POLY LOD CHARACTER. We can however have a lot more characters in game if we use tessellation as a LEVEL OF DETAIL poly count management. Instead of cluttering up our memory with a **** load of LOD and extra textures.
You said.
tessellation is nice thing but doesn't really feel necessary for characters if your game running on latest hardwareTessellation only works efficiently on the latest hardware.(opengl4 dx11) 1.6 billion triangles a second is good enough performance. Wouldn't you say? So if you want to reach more customers (older hardware) you will have to use the low end renderer. Which obviously tessellation will not work. In order to hit all hardware markets. You will have to use different techniques and or technology. Which brings me back to my first post in this thread.
Do you want to use lod for the fall back renderer or opengl4 ?
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Be careful when using some tools in blender now. Since I believe 2.6 Blender came out with a new mesh system. Which allows you to create n-gons. N-gons are great to allow you to quickly create a high poly model. You should then retopo that mesh, and be sure to use quads or triangles only. A n-gon is a face that can have as many vertice as you like. Which will not convert and be drawn into triangles very nicely. Also it's not a good idea to use both quads and triangles on the same model. One or the other.
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For cases such as this it's perfectly adequate for "LOD", but due to it's linear nature it wont really work well with more complex or organic shapes - I ( or an artist ) can suggest a shape or form with far fewer polygons than you can with automatic tessellation, this is simply because it wont know what to focus on to get a recognizable silhouette1.
Sorry this is wrong. You the artist defines exactly where the newly generated vertice go with a displacement map. You the artist (and me) model a high poly model. We then make all of our textures for said high poly model. You then create a low poly model. One that would be equal in poly count as a low poly LOD (or lower). You then (in a modeling program) bake all of you textures from high poly to low poly.
Now you can tessellate your model to what would be equal to your medium LOD. Or if the camera gets closer you could tessellate to what would be equal to a high poly LOD. All from one model. Which can clear up a lot of memory space so you (and me) the artist can create more uncommon models. Instead of every time you go around a corner you see the same pop can or the same character over and over again.
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..hahahah..this guy really sounds like a yoda...
is it same voice actor? Yes. Frank Oz.
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This is kind of what I felt like yesterday.
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No just one cube. All of the solid interior walls on the first floor can be created from the bottom plane. Any doorway would need a two sided plane. The side planes can make up the inside of the outside walls. Along with the widows, doors, paintings.... And the top plane is the ceiling. Each bedroom would have one door and one closet door. So each bedroom add 8 triangles. Then a entry for kitchen, living room, laundry. 4 triangle each. Say a closet at the main door so you can hang your coat up. And maybe a pantry in the kitchen. Another 8 triangle. Two bath. 8 triangle. So a four bed room one story house could have as little as 82 triangles for a base (primitive) mesh. 72 for inside and 10 for out side.
Maybe you did talk me into a combination of using both LOD. However, once the geometry shader gets going. You will not need to load the interior on the memory. Just create a primitive interior. Tessellate and boom.
Edit: No your right. One cube plus 30 planes.
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I was not thinking of interior doors.
Any interior wall that has a door way would need its own plane. The rest can be brought up from the bottom plane. For every interior door add 4 triangles. -
Why not? The interior walls can be created from the bottom plane of the inside cube. Also you could have the tile textures or carpet or hardwood floors. The left and right inside cube planes could make the inside section of the walls, windows, and doors. And even cracks in the paint. Same for the front and back planes. If you want to do multiple floors you could place a two sided plane at each floor level. One side will be the ceiling and the other interior walls for the second floor. You would not be able to create the furniture and other items.
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There is different kinds of detail though. There is how many polys on a model (which tessellation handles very well), then there are completely different models needed (like in the house example). Your suggestion seems to use a combination of traditional LODish (1 model for house outside and 1 for the inside only showing the inside when the camera is close) and tesselation (on the house outside). I think the suggestion is worth checking out, but this idea related to the house is more than to increase/decrease poly count. It's to show an entirely different model or not given camera distance as well as increase/decrease the outside model.
Yes but think about it like this. My two cubes (inside/outside) both collectively have 22 triangles. Each cube has one set of textures. If you add up the triangles for three maybe four LOD and each LOD has their own texture. The LOD memory footprint will be much larger.
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Here is a thought. When I first learned about tessellation I had an idea on how to create a tree from just a few planes. I have not had much time to try some of my new ideas. My idea involved what is called a two sided plane. A two sided plane is just two planes facing back to back almost in the same x,y,z. Just a tiny bit offset on one axis. So what if we use a cube with the normals on the outside. Then make a cube a little bit smaller and have the normals face the inside. Then you could tessellate the outside and inside when needed. The base mesh for each house or building would have eleven faces. I know your saying two cubes would be twelve faces. But you would not need the bottom face for the outside cube. I suppose if you would want to populate your game with a bunch of houses, buildings,trees, ect.. you still may want to use a billboard to help with the long camera shots.
@Rick The concepts are the same. We can only render a certain amount of triangles. With both techniques all you are trying to do is render the most amount of triangles closest to the camera. To decrease and increase a models poly count with tessellation is LEVEL OF DETAIL.
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@tournamentdan I would think a use case for LOD in OpenGL 4 would be buildings. From a distance I wouldn't think you'd want internals to buildings. That was more of the example I had in mind when I made this.
The outside and the inside of a building can be different models . The inside of the house does not necessarily need to be there until the player gets close to the house. This does not mean you need a billboard of the building or three or more LOD of the house. You could have a cube with textures of the house. As the camera gets closer you add more detail. Then when you get real close, then you could draw the inside of the house. Or maybe create all of the inside walls with a couple planes. Think about what a geometry shader could do here. When the player gets close. You could create the entire inside of the house and all of the models(kitchen cabinets, soda cans, tv, couch etc...) in real time. With out all of those models loaded on memory. How about infinite terrain? All can be done with geometry shader and tessellation.
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@Agrorr :
@tournamentdan :
Okay tesselation specialist , you just talk tech what is easy, but who cares ... show us something concrete now .... the best game demo you can make with tesselation (i think we can wait even after LE5 to see something good)
Don't you worry about me A-hole. When I am ready. I will gladly show what I have been working on. Currently I have a lot on my plate. Rebuilding a house, running my business, developing a cnc for friend of mine. Oh and currently today I have been busy correcting a nincompoop spreading lies about things they obviously know nothing about.
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@tournamentdan :
Each tech feature depends if people need it or not for their game.
I don't need it (specially if i made Low poly style game or mobile one)
You must of missed the part where I said.
Having said all of this. You do not need lod for opengl4. So I am guessing you need it for the low end renderer.
@tournamentdan :
Well ... the subject was : CAN WE DO LOD WITH LE3 OURSELVES
No. Look at the top of the screen. The subject reads: LOD system questions.
is it same voice actor? 
Any interior wall that has a door way would need its own plane. The rest can be brought up from the bottom plane. For every interior door add 4 triangles.
How to remove her Blouse LE 3.1
in Programming
Posted
From the sounds of it this base character and add on cloths have not been skinned. In the description it says "These costume elements are already rigged for you on the model! for ease of use." This means each clothing option has been weight painted for that character skeletal bone rig. So if you want blouse "A" you can delete the other blouses (b,c, d) without problems.
I think the paragraph from arterial is miss leading. There is a bit more work than just simply showing and hiding the different groups. Yes this is how the player can select and deselect the types of clothing for their character. But after the player selects what they want. Your "character customisation editor" would need to parent each vertex group together. Each one of those "groups" has a vertex group in them. For example. The top group in your picture shows "basearmleft". At the top of the arm where the arm meets the torso. There is a edge loop on the arm. That edge loop is part of a vertex group. Each vertex in that loop has its own name. Same as the edge loop on the arm pit of the torso. That way with code you can parent the vertex group of the basearmleft to the torso. Same way you can parent bones together. After each one of the vertex groups of each group are parented. You then will have a skinned mesh ready for your videogame.