YouGroove
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I think it's better to use 3D letters, so they don't get pixelized when zooming in, plus it saves a lot of texture memory:
I'm not sure you'll save lot of memory, you just ned one time the policy somewhere !
And 3D letters , if they are lot lot of text, sorry but it won't help performance perhaps ? Perhaps you could do a stress test on some standard PC ?
Anyway it's your project, you do as you want.
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Yes but the fake 2D using 3D is a simple polygon Quad, so performance is still high than doing a detailled real 3D model.
Perhaps when you was talking about 3D you were pointign that way of doing : a simple 3D plane ?
Anyway, if you write such tool , count on me to test it deeply
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3D would impact performance and need a good computer and could caus problems in some 3D cards perhaps ? 2D scaling should do it.
In fact if you would view what is inside a component that would be in a graph it should behave like in Eclipse IDE : like some browser :
- You are in the main view : we call it "base view"
-You click on the component that is contained in a flow graph
- You view what is inside : we call it "viewZoom 1"
- Inside you find somewhere another custom component , you want to view what is contains , you click on it
- You view what is inside : we call it "viewZoom 2"
Now how to go back ? That's simple , you just click in some icon named "back" like in all browsers :
- you click on backward : you come from "viewZoom 2" to "viewZoom 1"
- you click on backward : you come back to the "base view"
I work with such system and it really works, it's an easy way of doing things
Another feature would be to be able to open as many window "tabs" as we want to viwe any component or part of the program.
In fact the C++ Class could corespond to Custom Components, and could contain basic components or also other custom components.
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..while all this looks attractive, I hardly see this as a some future of programming..for instance, how many simple 'Compare Bool' flowcharts you can fit on to a screen?? Current way of doing things can fit it quite a lot and all visible at once and easy to follow...how whole this code will look like once project grows so large that crawling along this small flowchart windows looks like a nightmare to me..each of this examples i see on the top, I could fit in to few lines of code, once corresponding classes are built (and yest, you have to have those classes whatever they are builted for this flow thing too) and it will not cover even 3rd of the screen space..i dont know..to me it just doesnt feel right, thats all..
Like i said the user could so is own block components, containing basic components !
You should click on them to display what they contain with several level or Boxing method (some Box could contain several other boxes components, and each of them would contain again components)
You could go from High level view, to some very detailled view on some specific custom component.
This way also helps a lot reading what is programmed compoared to read the code with linearity , when the code is complicated.
For example if you have a 10 Switch case instructions and lot of code on them you could to this way :
- Make a new custom component.
- Editing what it will contain and add A switch box containing 10 entries
- Point each entry to a new custom component
- Edit each new custom component by adding simple visual component
And this new compoenent could be named : "MyAnimationModule" for example if each siwtch case would manage some State variable dedicaced to animate a character.
Really with new Visual interfaces of today,with Scaling system, and Boxing/ Unboxxing System with several Chidls System it can be done.
But i know you are a pure programmer so indeed it won't suits you
And simple scripting system already suits me also, i don't need to loose time with some visual editor also.
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Like last graphic interfaces :
For visual blocks you should be able to Zoom/Dezoom on a Class for example and see only the boxes of methods. Than you could open another tab or window showing what is inside a method , like lot of components connected between them.
Im' not sure the graphic visualisation shoudl be a problem
It existed the 3D prototyping engine : Virtools
Graphical programming, is not new, but this prototypping engine was really very very slow, not suited for big 3D game or with some good amount of objects etc ...
Perhaps the code was interpreted and not compiled ? perhaps the visual components didn't generate good code ? Or perhaps it was the base graphics engine that was slow and bad ?
I think than going to visual Wrokflow, you should insure to have your blocks generate good and efficient code, not loosing unecessary time in pseudo instruction or whatever, the quality
will depend on the people making the programming blocks units also.
I don't have tested some of existing Unity Visual programming tools to see how it runs, if it is well generated on code, but i'll test it i hope this week end.
Just to see if i can win lot of time putting visual components and adjusting values ?
Some very simple code from Monkey Engine form the makers of BlitzBasic :
For the visual scripting here is an Unity Tool (i just find it a bit expensive 99$) , i really don't need it, but it can show what could be done in LE3 :
Even seeing these examples, we can see, that is very close to programming, even if you dot it visually, we find the standard language paradgims !
Perhaps a visual editor with specific icons (components representation), would be even more visual ?
Like some simple character icon for an entity component, some hand turning something in the X axis for a component dedicaced to pan an object aorund the X axis etc ....
So no need for a more easy code, if we should bring non coders to make games, they should take two ways :
- MODDING
- VISUAL PROGRAMMING
But even visual programming remains complicated for a new comer to IT world and programming.
The Modding solution remains the best, the 3D artist can than find a programmer to only make adjustments to the gameplay by modifying scripts for example, and the 3D artist can express himself caus he don't have to care a lot about the prograaming side.
Like E.Y.E game made by a little studio and published on Steam, its only Half Life 2 engine , they just modded it and make money,
i think the 3D artist just had to make the art and have programmers on the team.
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It's like you want !
There is Delphi language that is really easy also or another pure easy :
VB.Net and Delphi.Net already are also very simple.
Like i said, people that don't go deep into programming, should remain on the 3D art and perhaps avoid programming; or hire a programmer !
I think visual logic editor can remain the best option for non programmers, more basic language i'm not really sure it will help non programmers ?
Perhaps some language like :
"If myCharacterangle->angle is 120° then
Pan myCharacterEntity plus 10°
EndIf "
or
"If myCharacterangle.angle is lowerThan 120° then
Pan myCharacterEntity plus 10°
EndIf "
But again i would see lot more some graphic logic editor in that way :
-Character block
-Pan Block with an field value input
- condition Block (for the angle value < 120°)
Really you should consider the visual logic editor instead, but well it's your fun and pleasure i think to make this new language i presume
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BlitzMax is not so complicated ? And i remember when i used Blitz3D language is was also very direct and easy.
It's difficult to do lot more easy, if people can't use one of those two basic languages, i think they should do tutorials or avoid programming languages.
Or simply work in a little team with a programmer if they have good 3D art.
Caus you'll find mainly two cases of people :
3D artist skilled : They can show how good they are and work with one or more programmer in a team , or buy an engine having templates to have minimum gameplay
and more simply, take UT3 engine or any other and do Modding to bring their 3D models to life
People that like programmng a lot : They need to hire some 3D artist to make characters and levels, or buy premade 3D models.
Even kids programmed with BLitz3D and with advanced other 3D engines, they learned and done it. I remember myself programming on CPCP464 with basic really easily.
Well i don't think people need a new language.
And Unity 3D scripting is anotehr experience, some non programmers uses templates and some people give them specific scripts to "attach to an entity" for example.
Like i already said, really it's not needed, lot of 3D artists would prefer some Graphic Oblivion ToolSet to create their game, with all specific panels to define attributes
of characters, mission, dialog etc ... Or Unity 3D special user tools : Visual logic editors. I think it's the best way if you want to help non programmers : Templates or Visual Editors !
And with LE3 new System, perhaps any people will create a lot of little code script ready to "attach" to any door, some fo weapons, some code scrips for particles, some
code script to manage a character (3rd Template character) , some special camera scripts , some combat scripts etc... etc ...
I m' not sure you'll find lot of people needing another language specially with LE ? but if you are really motivated, take fun and pleasure and do it whatever people use it or not
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The solution isn't it BlitzMax ?
I don't have used it , but it is supported by LE2 , and people using it can do all commands also ? and it is some Basic like language no ?
For my part Lua is perfect (i'm just witing for LE3 and the new way of using Lua on entities).
Another point is C# that is also supported by LE2 , C# is not that complicated also.
I think the problem is not the language but missing "glue" between code and the world (terrain, entities etc ...) , for a beginner or people wanting to go fast
like already discussed, the missing bricks could be ;
- An integrated framework with standard methods (init, fraemUpdate ..)
- World loaded completly with the laod command (lights, entities) like in all other 3D engines !
- Table of Entities available any time, no need to manage them if not really specific need !
- On Lua Code could be "attached" to an entity (like some method taht would manage : keyboard controller, fire, and collision with ennemy attacks)
(All that features would make direct Lua programmign of entities like in Unity 3D perhaps).
I don't think the Language is the problem, Lua beeing simple enought , really !
For more simplicity , BlitzMax is the way no ?
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I'm not sure you will be able to sream some 1380*1200 resolution and more with next generation consoles and PC hardware incoming ??
Even more each server will need serious 3D cards, if you have 200 people wanting to play let's say Crysis 2, it means for them having 200 3D Cards on top of the market !
And with quick PC and games evolutions it will cost a lot for them to buy new 3D Cards to have the best graphics !
I'm not sure the Cloud will be enought good for playing lastest AAA game with all details ON
..... And the eternal problem of having a connexion to play .... if there is an internet shut down , or you have some problem on lines, you can't do nothing.
Well, im' old scholl and perfer to have my console at home, having the console and disc or cartridge is something totally different from virtual ...
Caus you can exchange, give it on a real box for an anniversary for example ....
From developper point of view, if it will work in some way, and if you can put any 3D game with an 3D engine, yes it could be good to publish a game on their platform.
I don't know if Steam won't be a better solution ?
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Or you could just put an invisible squarre mesh that covers the water mesh, and when your character Vertex of the mouth is on the volume of the squarre he is underwater.
It could be a bone of the mouth instead of vertex also.
And like it has been said, just take the altitude of the water could the water plane be at 0 or any other value , if the bone of the mouth is under, your character
is underwater whatever the animation you would play : this is the accurate way
The simple way : Detect if your character is swimming (what you should program when your character have the water reaching his torso), and you could manage a simple variable when the player would push the character to go underwater and when he goes off undewater :
1 = underwater
0 = not underwater
There are lot of ways of programming that. You should study game programming in some basic books and begin simple games, after that you'll know that you will be able
to manage anything you want
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and give basic building block scripts that the user joins together to make entities
Like i said , this seems to be more something like templates in that case ?
For Lua i thaight lot more in script methods that could be "attached" to any entity.
Some simple example :
For example we would have two methods , one for the Initialisatio nof the entiity , the other called each engine frameUpdate for the entity :
Method InitialiseMe(){
var life = 100 ;
}
Method rotateMe(){
EntityMe.Rotate(10*timeStep) ;
if(EntityMe.Collision == 1 ){
if(EntityMe.Collision.Entity.name == "Bullet") {
EntityMe.life = EntityMe.life -20 ;
if( EntityMe.life == 0 ) {
EntityMe.freeEntity();
}
}
}
}
So this way of programming , if we would have attached this script to several entities on the level; all of them would rotate each frame , and and disappear if they would be touched (on collision) by some entity whose name would be "bullet".
This is lot more like something like "attaching code to entities".
And indeed if you make some code that would behave like an ennemy, each entities taht would have this code attached would behave like an ennemy.
It's more this way i would have seen Lua ?
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As Metatron suggested, you need to write two class scripts, one on the wolf and one on the bird. Then, initialize its properties from the editor. Open up the atmosphere script as an example. Then there is also no need to maintain a separate table for entities, you can simply find any entity by doing FindChild on the scene.
As far as your common methods go, Leadwerks defines several callbacks you can use to run update logic. Take a look here: http://leadwerks.com/wiki/index.php?title=Entities#Callback_Functions Then you don't need to go about defining your own methods. I am not sure they are implemented in Lua though. You can most certainly use them in C/C++.
Before you start re-inventing the wheel, I would suggest you write some small (think Pong, Asteroids, Gorillas) clones to get a feel of what Leadwerks can and can't do. It will save you time later.
Thanks Laurens !
Without the table the algorithm will be like that i think :
Loop Entities
if entity.Name.startsWith("wolf"){
entity = WolfClass.update(entity) ;
}
if entity.Name.startsWith("Bird"){
entity = BirdClass.update(entity) ;
}
End Loop
For CallBacks method, the code can become complicated if i put some code on some CallBack method and some other code on thers CallBacks !
Perhaps it's better to put all methods and code in a single Class or method.
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What gameplay is not for me is coding lot of stuff to do simple things :
Some C4 Engine examples :
I meaned some C4 Examples of what means lot of coding to do simple stuff
Yes i find that C4 is really the hell to programm !
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@Metatron :
Thanks for the advice. I'll try tonight or tomorrow depending on free time.
But i think more and more going one more time to the full C++ way with LE2 , it have lot of chances to be as much code could it be Lua or C++, and same complexity to manage
the entities.Actually with LE2 makingt the game in Lua or C++ the benefits and differences are not big if you have to manage entities and their updates, you can manage completly the entity in
C++ i think.
Finally i htink the algorithm will be somethign like that :
-> Loop throught all entities names
{
if entitie.name = "Wolf"
-> tableEntities = new Wolf();
if entitie.name = "Bird"
-> tableEntities = new Bird();
i+1;
};
On the main loop of the programm i'll call the Wolf Update method :
Main Loop {
Player.update();
for (i =0; tableEntities.size(); i++ ) {
tableEntities.updateFrame();
}
}
I think it's the general idea. And each entity could herit fomr some common Class that would have the methods :
- init()
- FrameUpadet()
- FreeEntity() ;
Well thats the wxay i think to make my own framework entitie manager !
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Well in fact i have 10 ennemies , some five are the class (class or method manager in Lua ) : "Wolves" the other 5 are the class "Birds"
I place the models in the world Editor each five have the same name "Wolf", the other 5 have the same name "Bird".
So in the main Lua Loop , i'll have to :
-Load the scene
-Load the entities
-Load lights
- Load scene parameters
On the initialisation i'll have to :
- Init each five "Wolf" entities variables with Life, Attack, and place that 5 Objects on a table
- Init each five "Bird" entities variables with Life, Attack, and place that 5 Objects on a table
- init the player
Than on the main loop method i 'll have to :
- Manage player input and variables
- Manage all 5 Birds
- Manage all 5 Wolf
- Manage main menu if needed
Is that the way of having a complete interaction fo player some 10 ennemies ?
If someone would have some code example i would be happy also to read it
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About Gameplay programming i must have not explained well what i think about !
In gameplay indeed i htink in :
- Camear management
- Collisions
- Variables management
- Dialog System
- Inventory
- Character follwowing system or simple Scripted waypoint navigation system
- Character movement and specific collisions
- LOD or Region Hide/Show programming
All that depends on your game type, not all games requires all that features or sometimes simplified versions of inventory or other dialog system !
For me gameplay is all that, and i'm ok with all that.
What gameplay is not for me is coding lot of stuff to do simple things :
Some C4 Engine examples :
I know even LE2 is not in that way complex or we can do things lot more easily.
Yes i think each people will have to dig in rogramming even with script !
Or they'll have to buy some specific 3D engine or packake : FPS Creator, full MMO engine etc ...
For people wanting to do any type of game or something new , or including originality, indeed programming is needed.
I'm not waiting for someone to make an inventory system , or custom camera for me , i'll program it.
Perhaps with LE3 plugin system and new Lua way we will see some templates for some type of game, but that's not what i am waiting for ....
In my case i just would had perefrered an already integrated framework : entities heriting from some Init and FrameUpdate methods, and you having just to place them on the world editor
and specify the Class that would drive them.
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Yes , i agree !
I didn't understood at first time. Yes even with simple graphics , the challenge can be hard, if you can 't put consistent ligtening , graphic theme or textures brightness and composition.
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@Laurens :
You should open your mind a little more : Minecraft , Terraria, Limbo uses simplest possible **** graphics ... and well they are big big sucess no ? And there is a PS3 interesting title using vast sand landscape with the simplest graphics you could find also, and im' sure it will be a success.
I hope having a team is not a requirement to use LE3
??Yes, programming is needed, could it be Lua , C++ or any other scripting language.
I talk about basic simple programming , let's take some simple example :
If (input.key = "A") {
Camera.TurnX(5) ;
}
Even that for a 3D artist having some background programming. Indeed for someone that have never programmed , it could be hard to undertand i agree.
Myself i know a lot in Java, C# , i have done in the past some C, some Blitz3D and other basic language, so i have a good background.I'm not talented 3D artist, but i can do good things (for example using Zbrush, characters are easy for me) !
I just want to program gameplay, perhaps little additionnal custom things, but not shader or complicated 3D maths routines (i don't like maths) !
And if the engine allow me to prototype as fast as Unity3D in Lua it would be great.
We don't talk about templates at all here ... If templates exists they will be another part made by some individual users, and perhaps some people using FPS Creator for example could be interested to use them for modding. But yes we never said that LE3 should have templates at all , this will be to people to make them if templates must exist.
No we just talked about direct Lua programming without needing to manage entities, main loop, and framework for fast game prototyping or creation using Lua !
I think the threads turns not to talk about LE3 and Lua , but lot more around : "Artist Vs Programmer"
So we should speak about Lua in LE3 , talk about how it will work, how scripting system will be for entities instead !
The Vs debate idon't find it interesting , and each people believe in it's own believes until one day he sees the contrary
of its own believes, not all htings are full Black or Full White like each people believe it
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I think you are right !
But there are lot of little games on Iphone made by one guy indeed.
And the Ogre 3D game : Salvation Prophecy is a one guy project, even if he has baught and asked custom 3D models !
One guy is possible, you don't need to hire for 3D graphics a guy on your team, you can buy 3D models and custom 3D models
The other part is money income being one guy its' more easy to manage. I don't know how it can be if there is two guys : a 3D artist and a Programmer doing an Iphone
game ? How the money gained on the Itunes Store is split between the two guys ? Who is the guy that have passed teh contract with the Apple Store ?
And in Unity 3D forum i see regulary, little games made by people knowing basic script programming or aksing help on forums and making the game.
Or programmers using tricks to do a good looking game (like using cartoon style and graphics for example or simple graphics )
Examples can be Minecraft for example !
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I understand the team aspect for PC games.
But for mobile platform the things are totally different : A god programmer with medium 3D art or the help of some baught 3D characters or packages can do a great qualit game.
In the other side a 3D artist knowing how to program Camera, Gameplay, don't need to know complicated math programming to do a great game !
And there are example of lonewolves games that are successfull on steam and great :
Limbo, Bastion, Terraria etc ...
And Lonewolves capable of BIG LOUD games :
So you see, some succed at both, even if they requiere some temporary help from some 3D artist or programmer (on forums or outside !)
LE2 programming tutorials and examples are fearly simple, could it be C++ or C#or Lua , and the commands are easy !
I have no problem with that. I just wanted a high level Lua interaction between objects similar to Unity, but i'll try the table of objects and their management with my own main function in LE2
Something to prototype a game lot more faster before going further and turning it into a full C++ game for example; caus yes
Lua goal can be to Prototype the game also by putting together the 3D art , basic gaemplay and seeing if already the game
is valuable before going on ...
Perhaps you are right about LE2 , but LE3 will bring a better workflow, with new material/object editors also; something i'm interested a lot also !
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They are lonewolves indie people that succeed making good 3D art and programming after using a 3D engine.
Lot of examples can be seen on mobile, because the 3D art is not as pushed as with AAA games on PC !
I didn't say LE3 should be for programmers or 3D artists, i said i just hope it will make scripting more easy and direct as in Unity 3D, only my hope,
perhaps lot of people don't feel the same ...
I really need to try something in Lua and LE2 and stop talking about LE3, we will see for Lua how it works when it will be delivered, until that , i think i just can wait ....
And programmers can be rassured LE3 will reamin a 3D engine for programmers, no doubt on that
... (don't feel so attacked ...) -
You are right, i baught the wrong engine, i mean LE2 ...
But i had a good feeeling about the world editor , and terrain tools for some outdoor big levels, it was what i was seeking also.
For the programming side, yes I didn't understood the LE2 way of using Lua, i just understood step by step after some time using it and asking lot of questions !
LE3 seems to that it will have the script ready for game , just by implementing gameplay , without writing a "main" function and table of entities,
you'll have just to "attach' the code to entities if i understood well ? So LE3 when i will test seems to be what i exepected ...
I'll test , and i'll see if yes or no ...
I know that LE2, LE3 will remain engines for programmers, i'll just test the Lua side of LE3 and see how far we can go !
After that , the choice will be mine ..
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I agree with you, we won't go to the "push" the button to make the game or some defined ammo/weapons variables , it is Templates in that case. (perhaps some people will wrfite oens
with future plugin system ?).
No i just talked about a standard framework controller that you can find in lot of 3D engines with Init() methode, FrameUpdate() methods for example, just that no more.
Some of us don't want to reinvent the wheel each time, and perfer to make the game as fast as possible : Only gameplay programming point.
You ask total control , that's your way of seeing game programming like lot of other people, but that's not the only way, that's the way you like, that's your way, not the way some others like me want or like ! That's your right to defend your point of view, and C++;C# will remain as they are ; all the work is dedicade to the programmer caus he wants total control and he likes to program !
But you can't prevent other people to gain some Lua framework or some Lua more 3D artist oriented capability "like" Unity 3D .
If we gain scripting in Lua allowing what allow Unity Scritping System it will be good for some bunch of people , specially with mobile targets !!
Mobile fast and easy game making "a la" Unity 3D is what some of us would seek, and just seeing lot of Unity 3D mobile games published and all people that have used it's scripting system :
Isn't it efficient and prooven to work even for 3D artists ? So why not LE3 with Lua going this way ?
For my part i have already the points to verify to know if i'll go for LE3 or not when it will come out !
Just let's wait for LE3 ...
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In fact for my part i was just asking Scripting as simple as in Unity 3D for interaction between characters and any other game stuff !
I like the way you implement things in the frameworks, it's simple , easy to understand.
I never asked full visual language, no , just simple script with a simple integrated framework for anything.
I don't have to go in details, just try Unity 3D free version and it's scripting system
If you have similar way of programming as simple in Lua with LE2 ,just show us the example ??
Caus until now the example i found, i didn't found simple interaction between an ennemys and player or NPCs simple without having to implement a main method and lot of stuff etc ...
I ask nothing in fact, let's wait how LE3 will work, and each people coming to the engine that is more 3D artist oriented , will see how they can do things and if they are okay or prefer
to use another engine line Unity 3D or other ?
More Lua for 3D artists :
in Suggestion Box
Posted
I think some FPSC but more clever done : Using 3D tiles instead of thousands ot assembled polygons for each wall/ground would be lot lot better
And a 3D tile is one object compared to lot of objects for making a room in FPSC.
I think some pople could propose basic 3D tiles that could connect between them and some sort of editor, you could place 3D assets in these 3D Tiles, Ennemies, ammo etc ...
And the player controls would be some template, and you'll would have different templates for ennemies.
Even with LE2 such editor could be done by some programmer, but well ... no one need such tool neither me , caus lot of us uses terrain instead of closed rooms also.
I think people that want productivity first, will be happy with LE3 coming with an open plugin system !