Monkey Frog Studio
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Hello! I hope this is an okay topic. But I am curious. Why isn't Leadwerks more popular than it is? Why aren't there more people on this forum, and why isn't the forum more active than it currently is?
To be frank, I've known about Leadwerks for a long time (years), but I never bothered to work with it. I'm not sure why. And I've played with a lot of game engines. However, when I recently saw Leadwerks was on sale at Humble Bundle, I bit. And, frankly, I don't regret it at all. In fact, I am very enamored with the Leadwerks engine and am planning to develop my game project in it. I like the way it looks (the rendering engine produces a great look, as far as I am concerned), the editor is sufficient (though it could use a few tweaks), and I really like the idea of using LUA and the Flow Graph for repeatable stuff, like auto-opening doors, etc. So, yeah, I'm actually pretty stoked about using this engine.
So, here's sort of why I am asking why Leadwerks isn't more popular that it appears to be. First of all, it's been around for a long time ... about a decade or so already. And, if I remember correctly, Josh had been creating other things before the engine (such as a BSP level editor or some such, right?). So, after 10 years, why isn't this forum crawling with developers? Secondly, Leadwerks has managed to stay alive while other game engines have come and gone. I started out years ago using a game engine called 3D GameStudio. That's an old engine and at one time was considered one of the best indie game engines available. This was back in the day of game engines like Dark Basic, Blitz3D, Torque (Garage Games), etc. Then Unity came along and just seemed to take over. All the game engines I mentioned a moment ago (and a bunch of others)? They're gone (or, as is the case with 3D GameStudio, haven't been updated in years). Yet Leadwerks didn't go under or give in. Leadwerks survived. Even in the face of "giants", like Unreal, making their engines easily available to the masses. This says something to me about Leadwerks. While others have faded away, Leadwerks is still here, still being developed, and now Turbo is being developed, too.
So, if Leadwerks is able to have survived all of this, why isn't the community larger? Why aren't more Leadwerks projects being developed? Why aren't there a ton of LUA scripts available by an active membership? Where's all the stuff you normally see as a result of a thriving, active community?
I'm actually curious about this because I think the Leadwerks engine is pretty great. So, why isn't it more well known and used?
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Just having a bit of fun today:
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18 minutes ago, Josh said:
I restructured the model and texture loading code and now I have a system that can load TEX or PNG files, and it is simple to add support for additional file formats.
That's exciting! I can't wait to test this. I love working with glTF because it just simplifies a lot of what I do.
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27 minutes ago, Josh said:
I did not see the selection issue. I’ll check that out.
Thanks.
It was talked about here:
https://www.leadwerks.com/community/topic/17521-test-objects-from-blender-not-selectable-in-viewports/ -
Thanks for the reply, Josh. I do have a question/observation, and that's mainly because I am not the brightest bulb in the pack (and not yet a programmer).
I hear what you're saying about this being a code problem and not a problem with my art pipeline, but isn't this something more than a LUA issue? Isn't this more of a Leadwerks issue? The reason I say this is because I am importing an FBX file from TWO DIFFERENT sources and getting TWO DIFFERENT outcomes. The FBX file from Blender cannot be selected in the Leadwerks' editor's viewports. That's not a LUA issue, right? The FBX file from MODO can be selected in the Leadwerks' editor, but it cannot be picked up in-game. That could be a code issue. However, the FBX file from Blender CAN BE picked up in-game.
This seems to indicate that there is something going on either with Blender's FBX export, MODO's FBX export, or Leadwerks' FBX import (or all of the above?). Else, each FBX file would be the same in Leadwerks.
From MODO I tried two different FBX exporters ... FBX 2015 and FBX 2018. Both give me the same results (can be selected in the Leadwerks' editor's viewport, cannot be picked up in-game no matter what is set for mass).
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Thanks. I appreciate the input. And I agree, it looks like all my current issues are with collision hulls, which appear to not be operating correctly.
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Additional information - If I open the object in the Leadwerks' model viewer, collapse the model, and add a basic physics object (box, etc.), the objects can then be picked up.
So, here's what's going on in Leadwerks 4.5:
Blender objects (with collision hulls made in Blender) operate normally in-game (can be collided with and can be picked up, depending on mass), but cannot be selected in the Leadwerks viewport (only in the Leadwerks scene tree). Collapsing them and adding a basic physics object (box, etc.) fixes the viewport selecting issue.
Modo objects (with collision hulls made in Modo) can be collided with in-game, but cannot be picked up via pressing "E". They can be selected in the Leadwerks' viewport and scene tree with no issues. Collapsing the model in the model viewer and adding a basic physics object (box, etc.) allows the object to then be picked up in-game.
Do any objects imported into Leadwerks via FBX work correctly when you make a custom collision hull for them (if both the object and collision hull are exported at the same time)? For most instances, using the basic physics object will be fine as simple shapes will be all I'll need. But there will be times when a custom collision hull will be needed. So, what's the answer here?
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Alright, I am running into a different issue than the one from Blender I had started a thread on last week or so. I am testing getting 3D objects from MODO to Leadwerks via FBX. So, far, the model comes into Leadwerks at the correct size. If I have a "child" object named "collisionhull", then collision works perfectly in Leadwerks. And, unlike the Blender objects, I can select the models from MODO in Leadwerk's viewports without an issue. BUUUUUT ... there is another issue.
Using the stock fpsplayer model, I cannot PICK UP the objects exported from MODO.
For example, when I am close to an object with physics set to Rigid Body, Collision Type set to Prop, and a mass other than 0.0, a "hand" icon appears indicating I can pick up the object by pressing the "E" key. Hey! It's fun to toss stuff around, right? With the objects exported from Blender, this works perfectly. However, with the objects exported from MODO, the hand icon does not appear and pressing "E" does nothing.
Everything else works. I can push the object around by walking into it. I just can't pick it up like I can other objects. So, any ideas here? I've attached the test model.
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I've not the knowledge (yet) to really talk about the Flow Graph, but I like the idea. I like the idea of reusable code and of "generic" code that serves a simple purpose that can be used over and over and linked up (via the Flow Graph) as needed. Code the door opening code once and use it for every single door you have. Make the LUA code so you can access variables in the Scene Editor so you can adjust the code (like the door opening upward, downward, left, right, or swinging open). So, with this way of working, you code once and use over and over again, using the Flow Graph to link up triggers, switches, pressure plates, etc., without creating new code. This could work for most things in a game, me thinks. I'll be able to speak more intelligently about it when I've actually been using both LUA and the Flow Chart. I plan to dive a bit into it this weekend.
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I'm a non-programmer who has to learn (am an artist by trade). I do like the idea of the Flow Graph in general. It should make some tasks simpler (like the door/trigger example in the docs and the door/switch example you bring up). It allows for generic, re-usable scripts, which is nice and, with proper planning, could be a real time saver.
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22 minutes ago, macklebee said:
Its the same thing already reported in the second bug report posted above. Until Josh re-releases the fix that was done for it in 4.6, this will be an issue.
Maybe I'm missing what you're saying, but I'm not sure how it is. The model imports correctly, looks the correct scale in the Leadwerks editor, and behaves correctly when the game is run. The only issue is selecting it in the viewport. Please forgive me for being dense about this (today has not been my best day
).
EDIT - I was only clicking the first link. Ugh! I'll go and read the second link you posted now ...
EDIT2 - Now I see. I think I can find a way around this until Josh re-releases 4.6. Thanks!
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20 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:
How are you making the collision hull? Exporting as FBX then converting that model to a collision hull?
I created the collision hull in Blender with the model by making a child of the model and renaming it to collisionhull (as per the Leadwerk's docs). Then I export it as one FBX file.
Here's the link to what it says in the docs:
https://www.leadwerks.com/docs.php?page=Tutorials_Editor_Models-and-Animation#section6.2 -
Just did another test. I double-clicked on my model in Assets to bring up the model viewer. I then went to Tools>Collapse and saved. This lost the collision hull, so I could no longer collide with my mesh in the scene, BUT I can now select it in the viewports and it turns red when selected.
This makes me think it has something to do with the collision hull I created for in Blender.
EDIT: I went back into the model viewer, when to Physics, and added a Sphere to it. Now I can collide with my test sphere and I can select it in the viewports and it turns red. Yay. So, I really think I've done something wrong with the collision hull when I made it in Blender with the test sphere model. I'm not sure what I did. But I want to find out because I'll be needing to create custom collision hulls for more complex models.
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Another thing I've noticed - If I bring in a model that ships with Leadwerks, like one of the crate models, I can select it freely in any of the viewports. When I select it, the model turns red to indicate it is selected. My test models cannot be selected in the viewport, but can be selected in the scene tree. However, once selected in the scene tree, they do not turn red in the viewport to indicate they are selected. Even so, the move gizmo handle appears, so I can still move the model and it moves just fine.
So, the model looks correct in all viewports, but I cannot select it and when selected in the scene tree, it does not turn red. I can still manipulate it (move, rotate, and scale) as long as I click+drag the gizmo handles.
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39 minutes ago, macklebee said:
What version of LE are you using? This sounds like previous bug reports that has been resolved if memory serves.
I'm using the latest version. I have Steam setup to keep it updated to the latest beta. However, the latest version is v4.5 because Josh said he rolled it back from v4.6.
Also, scale in Blender is set to 1.00. Just FYI.
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Here you go. This should be a sphere with a collision hull on it.
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Take a look at the Doors tutorial in the Leadwerks documentation here:
https://www.leadwerks.com/learn?page=Tutorials_Games_First-Person-Shooter_Doors
Scroll down to the sliding door script section and it will show you how to use the Flow Graph.
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Do you want the actual model (as in FBX) or would you like the files created by Leadwerks (mdl, meta, phy)? And, thanks, btw.
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Actually, it looks like you are working at too small of a scale, especially with the icons looking that big. If you look to the bottom bar in the Leadwerks editor, you will see the grid size. It will say something like Grid Size: 32cm (just about a foot), Grid Size: 128cm, etc. So, in a sense your grid space represents a real-world size. Whenever I am working in the editor, the icons I see for lights, etc., are actually pretty small. And I am rarely ever zoomed in that close to the grid.
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Hello. I am testing bringing models from Blender into Leadwerks with collision hull. It is working perfectly and seems to be simple to do. However, I am noticing a difference between my models and the ones that come with Leadwerks. I cannot select my models in the viewport at all. I can easily select them in the Scene tree, though. So, what am I doing incorrectly that makes my models unselectable in the viewport?
Thanks for any help.
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I would definitely allow glTF to import BOTH models and textures, else you sort of defeat the purpose of glTF. It is, after all, a SCENE export/import format, importing geometry, materials, lights, animation, etc. With glTF, I can set up an entire scene in my modeling program, comprised of many models, many materials, several lights, etc., and export the entire scene in one shot. Or, if I choose, I can just export out a single model. It's up to me. So, glTF would be great for creating level prefabs, consisting of wall and floor segments (for example), etc. There's not much sense, as far as I'm concerned, to only use glTF to import models and then have the end-user have to import the materials separately and apply them afterward.
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1 hour ago, Josh said:
I don't think they have any texture format yet, but I saw an announcement Khronos is working on it. So yeah, then I would probably. Any extra info from our engine can be stored in the "extra" node in the format, which is exactly what it was put there for.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention, BTW.
Sure. No worries. Anything I can do to help.
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1 minute ago, Josh said:
That makes it just another transfer format. I am talking about using it as the official file format. There would be no import / conversion it would just be loaded as-is.
Got ya. So, you are thinking of replacing MDL and TEX with glTF then.
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It would be great if we could click an "eye" (for example) to hide/unhide items in the scene tree, like you do with layers in programs like Photoshop.
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Why Isn't Leadwerks More Popular?
in Tech Talk
Posted
Yes. It was especially surprising to see an engine like Unreal made available for "free". However, "free" hasn't stopped people from purchasing or investing in paid-for software. For example, Blender has been free for years and is getting more powerful with each release. Even so, most of the freelance artists I know (and, of course, studios) use paid-for software like MODO, Lightwave, Max, Maya, and C4D. Even I had been using MODO for the last 10 years, though I am switching over to Blender because 1) I don't like MODO's licensing (it changed with Foundry bought out Luxology) and 2) the "soon" release of Blender v2.8.
GIMP, Krita, Sai and many other 2D paint programs have also been available for free. Even so, Adobe continues to gain customers and Photoshop is still #1. Despite free apps, I use Clip Studio Paint for most of my 2D work and I have to pay for that.
So, "free" is not keeping others from growing their base. And when it comes to the "big guns", Unity and Unreal, they are not actually "free", are they? If you ever make any real money with them, then you end up paying (a monthly subscription with Unity or royalties to Epic). Frankly, while I don't know if I'd ever make enough with my game projects to end up having to pay either, I'd still rather pay up front for my software, own it, and can do what I please with it (display whatever startup logo I want, not have to worry about paying royalties no matter what, etc.). So, even though I could be using Unreal, I would rather use Leadwerks.
Also, there have been and continues to be several 2D game creation systems that are free. However, the most popular one seems to be GameMaker Studio, which you have to pay a pretty hefty price to own the studio and even more to get the export features you want/need. Despite it's price, it remains insanely popular. So, the availability of free alternatives does not seem to be hurting them all that much. In fact, there are several paid-for 2D game creation suites out there and they all seem to be doing fairly well, having quite active forums, Discord groups, etc.
That makes sense. However, look at something like GameMaker Studio. It focuses on ease of use (whether it is or not is beside the point
) and has been used to create some serious games. So, ease of use can certainly be a hook to get people in the door. But what happens is they learn that the GameMaker Studio drag-n-drop system has limits or is not actually as easy to use as actually coding in GML. So, many move on to learning how to code and become quite active on the GameMaker Studio forum (and other groups dedicated to it).
This is very cool, to be frank! I'm excited to see what Turbo will eventually have to offer. I just hope that the VR stuff does not take away from non-VR related development. I doubt it will, but even so ...
I am, too. I wish I were a decent programmer so I could take a sneak peak at it via your Turbo support channel. I'd do it in a hear beat.
Sure. However, I don't see why that is. Other forums thrive, even when the developer is busy, well, developing. If the community is large enough, then they tend to "feed" each other, talking to each other, helping each other, and showing off their work. This community seems small and not very active. And, as pointed out, that surprised be given how long Leadwerks has been developed and how good the engine actually is.
I think it comes down to the Leadwerks' community is not really being promoted. I looked up Leadwerks on Facebook, for example, and there have only been a few posts in the past few weeks and only one reply from someone showing any of the posts had been read. Josh is busy. I get that. But the page says there are over 1300 followers. Where are they? Why aren't there screen shots of projects being worked on? Why aren't there posts, discussions, etc.? Where is the community? And why do the regulars leave when Josh goes into development mode?
I'm not complaining. So, please don't get me wrong. Call me "passionate". I like Leadwerks and I'd like to see the community grow. Part of this is very selfish as I'd love to interact with, learn from, and be a help to people who also enjoy using Leadwerks.