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Moving forward with Leadwerks Engine 2.4 and Leadwerks 3.0


Josh

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I feel like you guys are owed an explanation of our long-term strategy, and now that I have definite plans I am happy to reveal them to you.

 

I've been spending a lot of time in the Silicon Valley area, and have learned a lot about business. We've been investigating external investment. I believe we could raise pretty much any amount of money we want, based on the fact we already have an existing business that is self-sustaining, and we have a great strategy. However, money does not necessarily equal success, and funding brings more restrictions. If we raised $10 million, our investors would expect a $100 million return, and everything we did would have to be geared towards that. If you recall the Blade3D story, you know what can happen when these deals go bad. I believe the wisest strategy for the development of Leadwerks 3.0 is for me to buckle down and write the majority of the C++ code, then add additional programmers once the foundation is in place. This allows me to carefully design the core functionality without external pressures. It ensures I don’t trust the engine core to some programmer that may not understand our design objectives. Finally, it forces me to tame that beast that is C++. Even if my future is more of a management role than programming, I still need to be able to evaluate future employees’ work. Once I feel the project is ready for more programmers, we may seek funding, but we’ll be in a less risky position at that point.

 

Another thing I have learned is how great networking is. It’s fun, and it can lead to valuable contacts. I live two hours from San Jose, so there is no excuse for me not to be more involved in the game industry. From now on, I am going to attend more IGDA and other events. I may find some good programmers to hire later on, or it may lead to new partnerships like the one I will be announcing with version 2.4. For many developers, Leadwerks is your portal into the game industry. If I am more in involved with what is going on, then by extension you will be, too.

 

Leadwerks 3.0 will be written in C++, but will still support all the languages we do now. Every part of the code that interfaces with the hardware will be abstracted out as a “driver”. This includes graphics, sound, the file system, and networking. To add support for a new platform, we will just write a new set of drivers for that hardware. The editor will continue to be written in BlitzMax because development time will be shorter and the end result will be fast and cross-platform compatible. To begin with, I am most interested in Windows and Android, but eventually plan on supporting everything. The abstracted driver design we are using makes it possible for separate teams to work on porting the code independently.

 

I’ve received a lot of great feedback from the community, especially on the tools and workflow. The design of version 3.0 makes it easier for users to just click and drag some items around to make a game, but you can still drill down to the script and programming level, when you need more control. The most intriguing aspect is how it lets advanced programmers work together with designers, and they all can make valuable contributions to a project.

 

Leadwerks Engine 2.4 will be out soon, and will include a brand new lighting feature that has never been done before, by any engine. The bug tracker is presently clear of reports, but if anything comes up in the future, it will be fixed and patched. After 2.4 is released, I will be going on a short vacation, and when I return work on Leadwerks 3.0 will begin in earnest. We will begin offering the 3.0 beta for sale at a generous discount only to existing Leadwerks Engine 2 developers. When will it be done? I don't know, but I will have a better idea after working with the C++ code for a while.

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So you are going to release 2.4 and then go on vacation? Ouch. Not that the vacation isn't well deserved but you should release 2.4 after you come back so you can answer and fix issues, because like any piece of software there will be issues for weeks after it's release, especially if you are doing some lighting stuff that hasn't been done by anyone before.

 

As far as you coding in C++, as you come across design ideas it might be helpful to ask the C++ community on on certain things could be done. There are a millions different ways to do things in C++, so finding the best one first can help the code be more solid right out of the gate. I just picture the Lua deal where it seemed like you might have only talked to a fwe people or thought of your own to make the multiple instances instead of the one. It could have saved time up front if that question was put to the community up front before you did any of the coding.

 

I also think that you are letting fear take over your decision about the investment chances. The amount of resources and things you can do with 10 million is huge. Sure get that money doesn't equal a great engine, but you equal a great engine. You are the asset of LE and having 10 million isn't going to change that. Sure you might have to hire people and they won't all think like you, but that's where you have to turn into the boss and make them think like you. Make them see the goals you have and if you have a clear plan they will deliver. When I read your comments about why you don't want to do this, they seem more based on fear than anything else.

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Sounds like a great future strategy, I personally agree with you in not pulling in loads of investment just because you can. If there is a clear need and justification for it then that's a different matter. I also believe that with a sustained period of C++ coding you will not find it to be quite the beast you believe it to be, but only time will tell. Good luck and enjoy your well deserved break. Exciting times ahead!

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On the basis of upgrades. For those it involved, it appeared to be quite a troublesome process between 2.2 and 2.3. Eventually, I got the idea that due to complications the upgrade was no longer offered. Is 2.4 a paid upgrade? and if so, Is the upgrade only available for 2.3 devleopers, or is it open to all LE 2 developers. And will the upgrade process only be available temporarily?

 

Likewise, is it realistic to ask the same question about LE 3? or is that still so far away that you have no idea about the upgrade process / prices?

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Josh I think you have evaluated the situation very clearly. I was a Blade3d user and I LOVED that software. And I hate what happened with it and the founders (husband and wife) were devastated by the impartial hand of a CEO who did not share their understanding, vision, or the value of the software that had developed. Blade3d was brilliantedly designed editor that was far far ahead of its time. But the investors treated it like **** when it didn't bring the the money exactly when they wanted it to.

 

I would hate for something like that to happen to Leadwerks. So I think your strategy of maintaining a healthy degree of independence is the RIGHT idea. It will give you the flexibility to adapt to new situations whenever you want. And honestly I don't think you really need a lot of new programmers, just 2-3 fellow geniuses should do. :)

 

If you ask me, all Leadwerks needs is water, sky, cinematics, and flowgraphs. I'm the noobiest guy amongst us and that's the only added noob friendly stuff I need. You might want to make sure you aren't making a super redefined editor for no reason. Flowgraphs alone could bring in the crymod crowd who are ready to try their hand at actually owning the porgrams they code into their engine.

 

Were you familiar wtih Blade's editor. I think that is a good editor to emulate eventually. But also, don't forget about that blender plugin hahahaha :)

 

Alright, thanks for making such a great engine. I wouldn't have known what to do wtihout Leadwerks since Blade3d was destroyed from the inside the way it was.

 

oh yeah, go ahead and make that 3.0 beta pre-purchase available I will buy it right now as long as I can afford it that is :)

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Congratulations Josh to such a wise plan.

This driver idea is just a great idea.

 

Also moving to C++ is wise decision I think.

You will find that when you passed the learning threshold its

a very, very capable language.

 

I also welcome the decision that you and no one else will

continue the programming until 3.0 is stable. One of the main

reasons why I'm still using LE although I have licenses for other engines

is your visions, stable code and willingness to listen for suggestions.

 

I'm happy to read this and encourage this evolution of LE

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Version 2.4 is a free upgrade from 2.32.

 

My goal is to reduce risk before external funding and additional programmers are added into the mix. It's like the difference between the people who experienced the teething problems of ~2.22 and the developers who joined after the much more stable version 2.31. It's easiest to add people to an already establish structure, where they each have their own subsystem to work on.

 

My estimates for porting the source to C++ have ranged from 6 weeks to 9 months. I have no idea how much effort it will be. I could estimate it, but any arbitrary number would be as valid as another. Therefore I think it is important for me to make some headway on this myself before involving anyone else.

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I think this can be approached like a game or any other software. You write the detailed tech design (detailed non programming language description) and then it doesn't really matter who programs it as long as they know the language and API's you require for the project, and they follow your design. Why would you want to program this? It's a waste of your time really. It sounds more like you don't have the details worked out of what you want and that's why you want to program it. So when you hit the design holes you can then come up with a design on the fly to fill that hole.

 

Given that I can see why you wouldn't want to take the risk, although I think the solution would be to make the detailed tech design instead of programming it yourself. You are like a Sid Meier. There comes a point where your time is better spent designing instead of programming. The design is what you bring to the table for LE. If you detailed your design, then any programmer who knows the language and API can make it come true for you.

 

That's my view on it anyway. If you program this in a language you aren't familiar with the chances that you do something incorrectly or hacky will be much greater and can have negative impact on the engine in the long run. This doesn't mean you have to take the full 10 million however, but much less to start with to get just the few programmers required to get your design working.

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I would use the new C++0x standard, which is implemented in VS2010 C++ and GNU C++. This allows for example the use of rvalue references (&&), which makes code much faster since it implements true moving of references (copying of pointers only), while in the old C++ they were faked by copying (move vs copy constructor). This gives especially a huge speed boost when working with vectors, maps and other STL containers.

 

See also:

http://www.informit.com/guides/content.aspx?g=cplusplus&seqNum=480

and

http://thbecker.net/articles/rvalue_references/section_01.html

and of course

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%2B%2B0x#Rvalue_reference_and_move_semantics

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Great news Josh. I am eagerly awaiting what 2.4 has in store for us. If you can write and engine + editor that is already as advanced as it is now, I don't see why C++ would be a problem. Like Rick says, I think you will do just fine. As long as you keep in mind that you know the entire engine structure and that you will probably be the one writing the code, there can't be much going wrong. Anyway, you have my support an cheers on your future development.

 

Also agreeing with Pancakes; the engine and editor are allready very cool. Okay, a few things and some smaller features could be handy, but the main thing for this engine is its rendering power.

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Josh, I am pretty sure there are members here that would help you. With NDA and contract of course. I would almost bet most would help for nothing up front. I am sure that would help you in the end.

But I like your dedicated to what you want....

 

Keep it up

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Its a wise decision not to accept venture capital, as they will sell your company out from under you, to make a big profit within their allotted time frame.

 

I've also seen what big money companies did to 3D programs like Hexagon and Bryce, when they took them over and it was very sad. It would be a shame to see the same happen to Leadwerks.

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I've also seen what big money companies did to 3D programs like Hexagon and Bryce, when they took them over and it was very sad. It would be a shame to see the same happen to Leadwerks.

agreed... fantastic intuitive software that basically just got shelved development-wise once taken over just to basically incorporate their ideas into the company's other software... which left everyone who had hexagon and bryce screwed with no hopes of improvements or bug fixes.

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I've also seen what big money companies did to 3D programs like Hexagon and Bryce, when they took them over and it was very sad. It would be a shame to see the same happen to Leadwerks.

 

That's companies buying other companies (or software) which isn't exactly the same as venture capitalist. Venture capital is used in tons of startup businesses. For every 1 bad story out there around this, there are hundreds of good stories.

 

So many people said Josh needs more people, that he can't do it all himself, but when the opportunity comes up to get that and he turns it down (or doesn't pursue it) everyone says good idea? It's pure fear oriented. It would be in the best interest of Leadwerk users if he did this. When it's just a 1 man show, he could die or get critically injured tomorrow and this all ends instantly. At least if it's a company with employees Josh could die or get hurt and yet LE would continue on. Do you think if the guy(s) who created Unity would die that Unity would close it's doors for good? No way. There is a staff and the company is greater than 1 person. That's more secure for the users.

 

I remember when Josh had back surgery, I think it was, he didn't even want to tell us about it in fear that people might freak out in the thought that he wouldn't come out of it OK.

 

Frustrating that the opportunity is there for the taking and it's left on the table.

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Does Leadwerks even need $10 million to be a great engine that gets more customers?

 

I think that with a few key improvements and a small number of paid devs. That with a clever plan, Leadwerks can acheive greater market penetration without any of that venture capital. I said the same thing to Blade3d developers.

 

They need to get Leadwerks inside of the schools. Get interns to help add new features. Teach new students how to use Leadwerks for game development. When they graduate at least some of them will remain loyal to Leadwerks...why wouldn't they. It's flippin ninja. And josh is a swashbucklin pirate. So everybody's happy!

 

Anyways. Like I said. A clever plan will go much farther in today's age of open source + commercial strategic partnerships look at google, look at blender etc. To do things the AOL way is so 1990. Big, big, big. Sell, sell, sell.

 

Instead, just make it great. And then cleverly get other people to help you make it greater in a mutually benefitial manner.

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i don't think it's possible to do a project of this scale without funding. but it will go a lot smoother if i lay some ground work first

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Rick,

The idea with VC, is it is purely to make money quickly, using any means necessary.

 

So if you go to these people, its because you want their money and management expertise, so you/they can sell for a huge profit within 5 years or so.

 

As Josh indicated, if he takes money from these guys, he will be giving them control of his company. That's fine if you are just in it for money, but if you enjoy what you do, then giving it up, is a high price to pay.

 

I have relatives who went down the VC route and while they don't regret it, they are bored to tears now, because they don't have a company to play with. :lol:

 

Have a look through the Venture Capital entry at Wiki. The history of it is very interesting.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital

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They need to get Leadwerks inside of the schools.

 

I think that's a bit much... Blitz and DB etc. They work in schools, for teaching basic level programming (although I couldn't even see programming being taught until the sixth form years). Leadwerks though, is not a programming language. It's primarily a graphical command set with support for audio and physical representation. I just can't see that being taught in schools, even at A-level. So for that reason, I can't see that opening up to schools would be a viable option.

 

But hey, I'm not Josh, so I'm not going to tell him where he can and can't market his engine

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:lol: Fantastic !

 

Take 3 weeks of holiday. First week your mind is still 50% at work, second week you're on holiday 100%, third week you already think on comming back at work.

 

Will LE 3 be more thread friendly ? (i ask this because it'll probably be difficult to add afterwards, so it should be by design from the beginning)

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Hey great news here so far,

 

Why just don't you act as 3D RAD system ?

 

dev funding on users "gifts" by feature wanted, needeed ,

you fixes the ammount for the goal, the feasability, you can then hire some devs if necessary, and the funds stay entirelly yours.

You begin to code only when ammount is reached, it is not the "panacée" but it is working by now at 3D Rad, take a look.

Just an idea for your financial freedom,

hmmmm..., and people please, don't hurt my head too strong....

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When you do go for some first round funding, I'd consider spending it on some middleware licensing and integration. Even if you got a couple additional programmers, it would still take forever to implement stuff that's already out there.

 

Something like CloakWorks

could probably be had for very cheap as it's just starting up.

 

Scaleform or another GUI middleware would also be very nice to have. An integrated lightmapper could do wonders as well. You already have one of the best dynamic lighting systems out there, but it's never going to compare to precalculated lighting. Combining the two could give awesome performance and quality gains.

 

The main problem I have w/ LeadWerks at the moment is just workflow. Having to close the editor to reimport an asset, run separate tools to do file conversions, etc is a turn off. But I think you were already planning on addressing this in 3.0.

 

Anyways, keep on keeping on. I look forward to what Leadwerks can become and will probably pick up a 3.0 beta license once it's available depending on the state of the editor.

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Guest Red Ocktober

Posted

first... thx for the info...

 

i was going to start a thread inquiring on the progress of 3.0 so far... or what, if there one, was the game plan... but, i didn't want to start up anything that might've turned controversial or too diverting...

 

second... i'm glad to see that there's going to be a 2.4... 2.32, despite what i've been reading in the daily blab, still contains a few bugs (particles for one see below)... i hope 2.4 will attend to this, and those other non existant ones...

 

 

 

 

LW_Editor%20Particles%20Bug.jpg?psid=1

 

 

sorry... :lol:

 

 

 

third... and this is aimed at everyone looking for that perfect workflow... with all those aforementioned 'essentials' that Leadwerks should have...

 

just a point of consideration... Leadwerks is basically a one man shop (don't hit me)... and the licensing costs here are considerably lower than anything else out there that comes with those ancillary features that're being requested... i mean, it'd be great if we had em... but realisitcly speaking... you're talking a much more extended development and testing time cycle... and a higher licensing cost...

 

i'd prefer a bulletproof game api appear first... while it's a bit of a pain sometimes, i can get most stuff into Leadwerks right now without too much agony... after we get a working Leadwerks, then those things can be looked into...

 

hey... didn't i say something about now raising a controversey :D

 

 

enjoy your time off... i think you've earned a few days of rest... send postcards :)

 

 

--Mike

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